Beating a dead horse (again)

[Tristen]

8 hours ago, JimmyB said:

I am a "leftist" and a Christian.  Our basic philosophy is to maximize individual freedom and not allow people to be discriminated against by protecting them via just laws

"Individual freedom" is a liberal philosophy, not "leftist". Leftism places everyone into broad categories and hierarchies of bullies and victims, the oppressed and their oppressors - and endeavors to make "laws" that discriminate against the supposed oppressor groups in favor of the supposedly oppressed.

 

8 hours ago, JimmyB said:

It is in fashion now to bash "leftists" as you are doing, which is of course contrary to the command found in both the Old Testament and the New Testament: Love your neighbor as yourself

Calling out an ideological agenda is hardly "bashing", nor is it logically contrary to "love". I can both love someone, and disagree with them, at the same time.

 

8 hours ago, JimmyB said:

If you want to learn the truth I will discuss the matter with you.  If you want to remain judgmental, read Matthew 7.

If you want to have a conversation, how about you quit posturing and start a conversation.

 

[JimmyB]

12 hours ago, farouk said:

@JimmyB May the Lord graciously spare you many more years to encourage and challenger others from the Scriptures during their pilgrim pathway! according to His perfect will.

Thanks.  I am aging, no question.  I realized (actively) recently that when I die, my body may die but my spirit will live forever.  Mind-blowing!

[JimmyB]

12 hours ago, Sparks said:

Coincidentally, it was the same with the unvaccinated.   For most, they didn't even know they had the virus without testing.   It's a pretty lame sickness when you have no idea you were sick in the first place.

MANY unvaccinated people died or had serious complications, over 1.3 million in the US alone..  That is the main reason I was vaccinated.  BTW, I have been vaccinated against many other diseases, e.g., polio, measles, pneumonia and others.  I plan to be alive and health as long as possible.

[JimmyB]

7 hours ago, Tristen said:

"Individual freedom" is a liberal philosophy, not "leftist". Leftism places everyone into broad categories and hierarchies of bullies and victims, the oppressed and their oppressors - and endeavors to make "laws" that discriminate against the supposed oppressor groups in favor of the supposedly oppressed.

 

Calling out an ideological agenda is hardly "bashing", nor is it logically contrary to "love". I can both love someone, and disagree with them, at the same time.

 

If you want to have a conversation, how about you quit posturing and start a conversation.

 

Left-wing politics describes the range of political ideologies that support and seek to achieve social equality and egalitarianism, often in opposition to social hierarchy as a whole or certain social hierarchies.  The term "leftist" is inflammatory these days, used by "rightists" to demonize those of us who believe in liberalism.  Your definition is biased and inaccurate.  

Generally, the left wing is characterized by an emphasis on ideas such as freedom, equality, fraternity, rights, progress, reform and internationalism while the right wing is characterized by an emphasis on notions such as authority, hierarchy, order, duty, tradition, reaction and nationalism.

If you want to have a conversation, how about you quit posturing and being aggressive and start a reasonable conversation. 

Edited July 18, 2023 by JimmyB

[Sparks]

14 minutes ago, JimmyB said:

MANY unvaccinated people died or had serious complications, over 1.3 million in the US alone.

Well, 6% of that 1.3 million (really was 6% of 153,504) according to the CDC who at the time were reporting nearly every death as a Covid 19 death.  This distortion mainly came about because there was a big Covid 19 bounty paid, per death, and people had the incentive to lie plus the media are natural born liars.  CDC adjusted their numbers to count people who actually died from Covid 19 and not including comorbidities and found that 94% were not real, leaving only 9,210 deaths to cause all the hysteria.   So it is 6% of any number you generate or claim.

You know how it goes in the bounty business. 

[WilliamL]

8 hours ago, JimmyB said:

Generally, the left wing is characterized by an emphasis on ideas such as freedom, equality, fraternity, rights, progress, reform and internationalism while the right wing is characterized by an emphasis on notions such as authority, hierarchy, order, duty, tradition, reaction and nationalism.

Those are your definitions? And you don't think conservatives would include "ideas such as freedom, equality, fraternity, and rights" among their core beliefs? And current leftists don't promote their own authoritarianism?? Such as political correctness?

Awfully biased definitions IMHO.

[Tristen]

On 7/19/2023 at 12:43 AM, JimmyB said:

Left-wing politics describes the range of political ideologies that support and seek to achieve social equality and egalitarianism, often in opposition to social hierarchy as a whole or certain social hierarchies.  The term "leftist" is inflammatory these days, used by "rightists" to demonize those of us who believe in liberalism.  Your definition is biased and inaccurate.

Well, as for myself, and many of those like me - we make the distinction between the traditional left (or classic liberals) and "leftism". They often contradict each other ideologically. 

For example, a long-held mantra of the traditional left is, "Even if I vehemently disagree with what you have to say, I'll fight and die for your right to say it". Whereas, leftists try to control what we are permitted to say. If we disagree with leftist ideology, they will seek a way to have us punished, or at-least have our voice removed from the conversation.

The traditional left believes in reason and freedom of thought and expression. Whereas leftism stems from post-modernist, post-truth schools of thought that can be traced back to anti-theistic, tyrannical, historically Marxist ideas of controlling people by dividing us into discreet groups to pit against each other.

We get to define our own intentions in how we use words. Perhaps our (yours and my) definitions differ. The implication is that we may not be referring to you when we use the term "leftist".

 

On 7/19/2023 at 12:43 AM, JimmyB said:

If you want to have a conversation, how about you quit posturing and being aggressive and start a reasonable conversation. 

Nice use of Tu Quoque fallacy. I don't see that one as much. It's a bit like the ginger stepchild of fallacies.

 

[JimmyB]

14 hours ago, Tristen said:

Well, as for myself, and many of those like me - we make the distinction between the traditional left (or classic liberals) and "leftism". They often contradict each other ideologically. 

For example, a long-held mantra of the traditional left is, "Even if I vehemently disagree with what you have to say, I'll fight and die for your right to say it". Whereas, leftists try to control what we are permitted to say. If we disagree with leftist ideology, they will seek a way to have us punished, or at-least have our voice removed from the conversation.

The traditional left believes in reason and freedom of thought and expression. Whereas leftism stems from post-modernist, post-truth schools of thought that can be traced back to anti-theistic, tyrannical, historically Marxist ideas of controlling people by dividing us into discreet groups to pit against each other.

We get to define our own intentions in how we use words. Perhaps our (yours and my) definitions differ. The implication is that we may not be referring to you when we use the term "leftist".

 

Nice use of Tu Quoque fallacy. I don't see that one as much. It's a bit like the ginger stepchild of fallacies.

 

This would be nice -- if it were true.  I never see anyone post anything about classical liberals, only leftists, as though they were synonyms..  Both groups are lumped under one term -- Democrats -- regardless of the differences.  There is an underlying assumption that anyone who doesn't agree with the current Republican ideas is a radical leftist.  If you don't see that then you are blind to what is happening.

I am of the generation when the opposition party was respected.  People perhaps disagreed, but they were respectful.  Now, in the days of Trump, common decency and respect for those with whom one has differences has been "thrown out the window".  Hatred and vilification has replaced respectful disagreement.  All one has to do is listen him (or his followers) or read one of his "truth social" posts to see what I am describing.

Edited July 23, 2023 by JimmyB

[other one]

I personally would like to see this horse buried in some secret place with no headstone.

[Tristen]

On 7/23/2023 at 11:58 PM, JimmyB said:

This would be nice -- if it were true.  I never see anyone post anything about classical liberals, only leftists, as though they were synonyms.

There's nothing I can do about other people who fail to make the appropriate distinctions.

As for me and my ilk, there is a very big distinction between leftists and classical liberals.

 

On 7/23/2023 at 11:58 PM, JimmyB said:

Both groups are lumped under one term -- Democrats -- regardless of the differences.  There is an underlying assumption that anyone who doesn't agree with the current Republican ideas is a radical leftist.  If you don't see that then you are blind to what is happening.

Or maybe I'm not from the US.

 

On 7/23/2023 at 11:58 PM, JimmyB said:

I am of the generation when the opposition party was respected.  People perhaps disagreed, but they were respectful.  Now, in the days of Trump, common decency and respect for those with whom one has differences has been "thrown out the window".  Hatred and vilification has replaced respectful disagreement.  All one has to do is listen him (or his followers) or read one of his "truth social" posts to see what I am describing.

I'd say you are somewhat "blind" if you think this is recent, or only happens in the direction you describe.

My first political memory is of the media portraying Ronald Reagan as a bumbling fool. But in 2016, everything got so ramped up that all pretense of impartiality went "out the window".

 

Anyways, It doesn't seem like I was talking about you in my generalization of leftists.