This One Thing Will Make You Believe in Noah’s Flood

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

FreeGrace said: 

OK, thanks.

Thanks for your explanation.  Yes, planets do have a function, but nothing required to maintain anything.

Shalom, FreeGrace.

LOL! That you KNOW OF, you mean!

I absolutely admit that I don't know everything.  Probably not much.  :)

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

What do you think this passage means?

Hebrews 1:1-5 (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels (messengers), as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels (messengers) said he at any time,

"Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?"

And again,

"I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"

That God has changed His message to mankind from prophets to His Son.  Followed by a description of His Son, including "holding all things together".  By that, I expect that to be a description of the forces that hold all atoms, molecules, etc together.

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

We don't know the extent He (God) has to go to "uphold ALL THINGS by the Word (Yeeshuwa`) of His power," when speaking about Him (Yeeshuwa`) "by whom also He (God) made the worlds (Greek: tous aioonas = 'the ages')."

This is true.

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The planets DO contribute to the way God's calendar works for His prophecies. Who knows but God what needs to be done to guarantee they work properly and are protected from projectiles that might otherwise destroy them?

you're right.  Who knows?  But none of this remotely suggests that the universe "matures" in a functional way.  Again, the first male had to be mature in order to accomplish all that God had for him to do.  

I see no equivalent in the universe.  So again, it cannot be denied that the universe has apparent age.  I believe that is really just literal age.

If the universe was only 6,000 years old, it should be very easy to verify that with all the extremely sensitive instruments that scientists now have.

Scientists laugh at the YEC and their claims.  But they can't laugh at me for agreeing with their claim that the universe is very very old.  And I can show them from the Bible to support that.

What defense to the YECs have?

[BeyondET]

13 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

Given the turbulent weather, especially considering the asteroid impacts had to cause the biblical global flood, with debris in the air from that and erupting volcanos, it may be a bit arduous for them to do that for why God had birds on the ark too.

Nothing is mentioned in the Bible of turbulent weather, asteroid impacts or volcanos. God doesn't even need clouds for it to rain.

Edited June 19, 2023 by BeyondET

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I'm not sure what part of my post you are referring to here.  And I DO DO DO doubt "the translation" (traditional) of v.2.  That has been my point.  There are 2 words in v.2 that are translated quite differently elsewhere in the OT and all the YECs simply ignore that FACT.

And, YECs can't explain the OBVIOUS apparent age of the universe.

Shalom, FreeGrace.

Aw, sure we can. The "apparent age of the universe" is an INTERPRETATION of what long-age people see from the REAL facts. They have a MINDSET that already rules what facts it can accept and how those facts are to be interpreted. This "prejudgment" or "prejudice" is responsible for seeing long ages in data that DO NOT state the "apparent age of the universe."

The facts have been skewed to "prove" what the long-agers already expect to find. There's no proof that the universe has been around for several billion years. That's just the fib that long-agers have told themselves through "science-FICTION" stories that have accumulated since the early 20th Century (1902). Space scifi started with Le Voyage dans la Lune (1902) by George Méliès.

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Well, you certainly "see" a lot.  Re-read your paragraph.  It says you believe Job was "singing with the sons of God".  No, he wasn't even there yet.  That was God's point.

I don't know what you mean by "sons of God," but many think this term means "angels" and that implies "Heaven."

But I submit that the term "sons of God" NEVER refers to angels! Rather, they are almost ALWAYS redeemed human beings. The only time the term wasn't used for redeemed human beings was when it was used as a term of prejudice and a group of individuals CALLED THEMSELVES "sons of God" as opposed to mere "men," because they were allowed to live on the surface of the earth, while the "men" had to live underground ... until a few decided to leave the cavern city of Chanowkh and live above ground.

For proof of this, read Qayin's ("Cain's") punishment and his complaint regarding that punishment in ...

Genesis 4:10-17 (KJV)

10 And he [God] said,

"What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. 11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; 12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be IN THE EARTH."

13 And Cain said unto the LORD,

"My punishment is greater than I can bear (more than I deserve). 14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH; and FROM THY FACE SHALL I BE HID; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond IN the earth; and it shall come to pass, that EVERY ONE THAT FINDETH ME shall slay me."

15 And the LORD said unto him,

"Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold."

And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. 17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

I believe that God is saying that He could read, "HEAR," the DNA in Hevel's blood, soaking into the soil.

See, the ground no longer produced an abundance of food for Qayin because of the murder of his brother Hevel ("Abel"). So, he and his wife went underground. And, when He built a city with his family, he called the name of the city after his own son, Chanowkh ("Enoch"), which means "the roof of one's mouth; palate."

Qayin (whose name means "Acquired") went out into the land of Nowd. The name means "Wandering," and I believe that it was a cavern system he found. This makes his city Chanowkh to be an underground city, hidden from those who would avenge Hevel's death. And, while "Hevel" meant "vapor" or "breath," his name came to mean "empty; wasted," for he was murdered before he could have children.

Fastforward to Qayin's great, great, great grandson, Laamekh ("Lamech"), and we read this:

Genesis 4:18-24 (KJV)

18 And unto Enoch (son) was born Irad (grandson): and Irad begat Mehujael (great grandson): and Mehujael begat Methusael (great, great grandson): and Methusael begat Lamech (great, great, great grandson). 

19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah. 20 And Adah bare Jabal (great, great, great, great grandson): he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle. 21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ. 22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.

23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah,

"Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt. 24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold."

Someone tried to hurt Laamekh, and in the struggle, Laamekh killed this other great ... grandson of Qayin. Laamekh tried to make his wives understand (and pass the word) that he had done it in self-defense. He felt that if Qayin would be avenged, he would be avenged seven times as much, too; however, GOD never said this!

Only Laamekh made this statement. But, his children were said to be (1) an instructor of every designer in metals of brass and iron, a trade he probably developed while in the underground city, and (2) the father of all who dwell in tents to follow herds of animals, the nomadic trade of taking your "cave" with you under a tent!

I believe that Laamekh and his family had to do their own escape from the city of Chanowkh.

Many Jewish rabbis believe that Na`amaah, whose name means "pleasantness," was mentioned because she became Noach's wife.

Now, the narrative goes back to Adam and Chavah, and they have their THIRD named son, Sheet (pronounced "shate"), which means "to put or place," a "RE-place-ment" for Hevel.

After the genealogy of chapter 5, which catches us up with what was going on upont the surface of the ground, we find these words:

Genesis 6:1-4 (KJV)

1 And it came to pass, when men (those who had been living in Chanowkh) began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the "sons of God" (those who had been living upon the surface) saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. (This implies that it was done against their will! It's what we would call "slavery," today!)

3 And the LORD said,

"My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."

4 There were giants (Hebrew: nfaaliym = "fellers; wood-cutters; lumberjacks") in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the "sons of God" came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same (the "sons of God") became mighty men which were of old (HEROES), men of renown (popularity).

So, these guys, who called themselves "sons of God," forcefully took women to be their wives, and then were PRAISED for it! These lumberjacks were strong men, and they could get away with it, because no one could stand up to these guys! Then we read,

Genesis 6:5-7 (KJV)

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said,

"I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them!"

THIS is what God hated! They had become corrupt, and God was just going to trash the whole thing, for He was sorry He had ever made them!

Genesis 6:8-12 (KJV)

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. 10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

But, there was ONE redeeming factor in the earth at that time (or actually, EIGHT): Noach and his wife (possibly Na`amaah), his three sons, and their wives.

Genesis 6:11-12 (KJV)

11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

And, THIS was the reason why God brought the GLOBAL Flood upon the earth!

Genesis 6:13-22 (KJV)

13 And God said unto Noah,

"The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. 14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. 15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. 16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; withlower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it. 17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. 18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. 19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep themalive with thee; they shall be male and female. 20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive. 21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them."

22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

[FreeGrace]

23 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

FreeGrace said: 

I'm not sure what part of my post you are referring to here.  And I DO DO DO doubt "the translation" (traditional) of v.2.  That has been my point.  There are 2 words in v.2 that are translated quite differently elsewhere in the OT and all the YECs simply ignore that FACT.

And, YECs can't explain the OBVIOUS apparent age of the universe.

Shalom, FreeGrace.

Aw, sure we can. The "apparent age of the universe" is an INTERPRETATION of what long-age people see from the REAL facts.

Thanks for defending my point!!  The real fact is that thre universe and earth are not just "apparently" old.  They ARE old.  

23 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

They have a MINDSET that already rules what facts it can accept and how those facts are to be interpreted. This "prejudgment" or "prejudice" is responsible for seeing long ages in data that DO NOT state the "apparent age of the universe."

I disagree about your charge about bias (mindset).  I come to Scripture with an open mind, to learn what the Scripture says.  And I have proven that key words in Gen 1:2 are translated quite differently elsewhere in the OT.  I am rather shocked that this fact just goes over the heads of YEC.

So, that charges Charles Lyell in 1796 of a "prejudgment" or "prejudice" when he came up with the geologic columns to determine earth age.  And yet, ol' Darwin hadn't even been born yet.  When did the idea (theory/bias/mindset) of evolution begin?  Darwin wrote his stupid "Origin of the Species" in 1859, some 63 years AFTER Lyell's work.

Is there evidence that the concept of "evolution" occurred before Darwin's writings?

23 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

The facts have been skewed to "prove" what the long-agers already expect to find.

Maybe in today's less than scientific mindset among scientists, but certainly not before Darwin's twisted view of things.

23 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

But I submit that the term "sons of God" NEVER refers to angels! Rather, they are almost ALWAYS redeemed human beings.

Quite a conflict here.  First a bold statement about "never" and then "almost always".  

So, what's left to call "sons of God"?

23 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

After the genealogy of chapter 5, which catches us up with what was going on upont the surface of the ground, we find these words:

Genesis 6:1-4 (KJV)

Before I deal with this passage, I skipped over the long history lesson, if that is what it was.  I didn't see any relevance to the discussion.  Maybe I am missing something.

23 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

1 And it came to pass, when men (those who had been living in Chanowkh) began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the "sons of God" (those who had been living upon the surface) saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. (This implies that it was done against their will! It's what we would call "slavery," today!)

3 And the LORD said,

"My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."

4 There were giants (Hebrew: nfaaliym = "fellers; wood-cutters; lumberjacks") in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the "sons of God" came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same (the "sons of God") became mighty men which were of old (HEROES), men of renown (popularity).

So, these guys, who called themselves "sons of God," forcefully took women to be their wives, and then were PRAISED for it! These lumberjacks were strong men, and they could get away with it, because no one could stand up to these guys! Then we read,

Genesis 6:5-7 (KJV)

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said,

"I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them!"

THIS is what God hated! They had become corrupt, and God was just going to trash the whole thing, for He was sorry He had ever made them!

If you really believe that God was "sorry", a human emotion for regret, then you cannot believe that God is truly omniscient.  Being omniscient, He has always knows everything that will occur.  So there CAN'T be real regret as man experiences.  When human emotions are attributed to God, that is called an "anthropopathism", which is a communication technique to help man understand God's policies, not emotions.  So God's policy changed.  He never regretted anything.  His omniscience doesn't allow for regret.  

23 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Genesis 6:8-12 (KJV)

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. 10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

But, there was ONE redeeming factor in the earth at that time (or actually, EIGHT): Noach and his wife (possibly Na`amaah), his three sons, and their wives.

Genesis 6:11-12 (KJV)

11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

And, THIS was the reason why God brought the GLOBAL Flood upon the earth!

Genesis 6:13-22 (KJV)

13 And God said unto Noah,

"The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. 14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. 15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. 16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; withlower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it. 17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. 18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. 19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep themalive with thee; they shall be male and female. 20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive. 21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them."

22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

OK, what is the point here?  Maybe I'm just tired.