Favourtism

[SpiritSong]

So last night my kids and I were reading through Genesis 43 as we have been following Joseph's story. In the ensuing discussion the subject of favourtism came up and we all agreed that while Goa allowed it and worked it in Joseph's eventual favour, it could be pretty damaging in our family relationships. 

The thing is, birthright and age in Joseph's time made a huge deal in how people related to you, so favourtism was to be expected and obviously did not seem as unfair as it does in modern Western culture.

Also, being the black sheep of my own family (which is something I don't discuss with my kids) I insist on being and appearing as fair as possible, and to reassure all three of my children that I love them all in their own individuality and all of them the same, which is hard because the youngest will get more attention and the oldest will get more responsibility and the middle one with the least drama will feel more ignored.

All this has led me to seek answers in God's Word, which in itself (Himself, really) is rich in promise of favour as well as a staunch advocate of justice and fairness. 

Was Joseph's descent and ascent fair? Moreover, was Jesus's? 

Was it fair for Joseph to put his brothers through the ringer like he did?

Was Jacob a fair father, especially for his time and culture?

 

What do you all think?

I hope this isn't a triggering topic, I have my own issues with it. I just want an honest discussion. Be blessed all 🙏

 

[Ray12614]

Fairness . . . in todays westernized culture is different from God's idea of fairness. When people today talk about 'fairness' they are really talking about the justice of God, and what is right and wrong based on their feelings and their 'standard' of right and wrong. Many times their understanding is not based on God's standards, but, on what they think should happen.

I will stop here because I don't want to 'morph' your subject into the Justice of God.

[AnOrangeCat]

7 hours ago, SpiritSong said:

Was Joseph's descent and ascent fair? Moreover, was Jesus's? 

Was it fair for Joseph to put his brothers through the ringer like he did?

Was Jacob a fair father, especially for his time and culture?

Complex questions. As much as we consider people like Joseph and David and others as heroes of the Bible it's important to remember that Jesus aside they were only human and had their flaws. David was considered a man after God's own heart, yet there was Bathsheba. Acknowledging that these people failed and made mistakes is a good thing and helps put our own view of God's expectations for us in the proper perspective. Perfection wasn't expected of them, and neither is it expected of us. We're bound to fail at times.

Another important thing to keep in mind is that we don't have an extremely detailed moment by moment account of things like Jacob's parenting or what was going through Joseph's heart as he was testing his brothers. The Bible doesn't tell us about his Plan B, or what he had in store if his brothers didn't return, though given what we know of Joseph there probably wasn't any vengeful or malicious intent.

Looking at Joseph's story overall his being sold into slavery certainly wasn't fair. His rise to power wasn't fair either. He suffered for a short time but ended up rising far above his original station. That's more than fair, that's generous. I see a picture of eternity in that. We as Christians may suffer for a while but eventually God more than repays us, and we have eternity to look forward to.

[AdHoc]

7 hours ago, SpiritSong said:

So last night my kids and I were reading through Genesis 43 as we have been following Joseph's story. In the ensuing discussion the subject of favourtism came up and we all agreed that while Goa allowed it and worked it in Joseph's eventual favour, it could be pretty damaging in our family relationships. 

The thing is, birthright and age in Joseph's time made a huge deal in how people related to you, so favourtism was to be expected and obviously did not seem as unfair as it does in modern Western culture.

Also, being the black sheep of my own family (which is something I don't discuss with my kids) I insist on being and appearing as fair as possible, and to reassure all three of my children that I love them all in their own individuality and all of them the same, which is hard because the youngest will get more attention and the oldest will get more responsibility and the middle one with the least drama will feel more ignored.

All this has led me to seek answers in God's Word, which in itself (Himself, really) is rich in promise of favour as well as a staunch advocate of justice and fairness. 

Was Joseph's descent and ascent fair? Moreover, was Jesus's? 

Was it fair for Joseph to put his brothers through the ringer like he did?

Was Jacob a fair father, especially for his time and culture?

 

What do you all think?

I hope this isn't a triggering topic, I have my own issues with it. I just want an honest discussion. Be blessed all 🙏

 

God works with His creature on two parallel rails. One is righteousness and one is government. In the matter of righteousness, all are equal. In the matter of government God makes each person unique in character and function. He exercises His sovereignty to get the result He wants. We do it too. A car has three main components; (i) an engine to drive it forward, (ii) a gearbox to get full use of the engine's capability, and (iii) a differential so that the car can go around corners. The design for best efficiency is engine driving the gearbox, the gearbox driving the differential and the differential driving the wheels. If the gearbox does not like his design or place in the running of the car, he may place himself ahead of the engine. The result will be (i) the engine will reach its maximum revolutions and the car will have a very low forward speed. (ii) The gearbox will remain in pristine condition but have no function.

If the differential does not like its design and/or its place in the function of the car, it can be placed ahead of the engine. But at the first corner the outer wheel will go faster than the inner wheel and the axle will snap. For the smooth and efficient running of the car, the sesigner instituted an ORDER.The expensive and powerful engine is first. The less expensive but technically intricate gearbox is second. The relatively cheap, small and inexpensive differential is third. But each has a vital role.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14  For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:

In matters of justice, God has no favorites. In matters of function God does what He likes. He is God and doesn't answer questions. If our children can grow up with this understanding they will be neither jealous nor down-cast when God CHOOSES one before the other. David knew and understood this as he stood ready to kill Saul (1st Sam.24). When it comes to God's government, let God change things. Be neither jealous or interfering.

[SpiritSong]

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

God works with His creature on two parallel rails. One is righteousness and one is government. In the matter of righteousness, all are equal. In the matter of government God makes each person unique in character and function. He exercises His sovereignty to get the result He wants. We do it too. A car has three main components; (i) an engine to drive it forward, (ii) a gearbox to get full use of the engine's capability, and (iii) a differential so that the car can go around corners. The design for best efficiency is engine driving the gearbox, the gearbox driving the differential and the differential driving the wheels. If the gearbox does not like his design or place in the running of the car, he may place himself ahead of the engine. The result will be (i) the engine will reach its maximum revolutions and the car will have a very low forward speed. (ii) The gearbox will remain in pristine condition but have no function.

If the differential does not like its design and/or its place in the function of the car, it can be placed ahead of the engine. But at the first corner the outer wheel will go faster than the inner wheel and the axle will snap. For the smooth and efficient running of the car, the sesigner instituted an ORDER.The expensive and powerful engine is first. The less expensive but technically intricate gearbox is second. The relatively cheap, small and inexpensive differential is third. But each has a vital role.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14  For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:

In matters of justice, God has no favorites. In matters of function God does what He likes. He is God and doesn't answer questions. If our children can grow up with this understanding they will be neither jealous nor down-cast when God CHOOSES one before the other. David knew and understood this as he stood ready to kill Saul (1st Sam.24). When it comes to God's government, let God change things. Be neither jealous or interfering.

Interesting perspective, I hadn't really thought about it from that angle. Of course God can do what He likes, but it is up to the individual once their in the job to do the job. Saul had a choice, just as Solomon did. I wouldn't call that a case of favourtism but personal corruption. It's not God's favour I have a concern with either, it's man's judgement. 

I guess I just don't think favourtism from man helps anyone; either the favourite or the ones who suffer with the jealousy. Having been on both sides (I was the youngest child who then grew into the black sheep) I just find it super careless and unnecessary. It was a cultural attitude for us for sure, but that didn't make it any better.

I can only imagine the issues Joseph's brothers sat with in order to feel justified in doing what they did to him. I don't have sympathy for them in that regard but I do understand that resentment is a real thing. 

Even Jacob knew what that was like with Esau and birthright shenanigans and his father and mother showing open favourtism to them both.

It just doesn't seem healthy. I'm glad God used it for Joseph's good but I wouldn't wish what he went through on anyone.

 

 

[SpiritSong]

18 hours ago, AnOrangeCat said:

Complex questions. As much as we consider people like Joseph and David and others as heroes of the Bible it's important to remember that Jesus aside they were only human and had their flaws. David was considered a man after God's own heart, yet there was Bathsheba. Acknowledging that these people failed and made mistakes is a good thing and helps put our own view of God's expectations for us in the proper perspective. Perfection wasn't expected of them, and neither is it expected of us. We're bound to fail at times.

Another important thing to keep in mind is that we don't have an extremely detailed moment by moment account of things like Jacob's parenting or what was going through Joseph's heart as he was testing his brothers. The Bible doesn't tell us about his Plan B, or what he had in store if his brothers didn't return, though given what we know of Joseph there probably wasn't any vengeful or malicious intent.

Looking at Joseph's story overall his being sold into slavery certainly wasn't fair. His rise to power wasn't fair either. He suffered for a short time but ended up rising far above his original station. That's more than fair, that's generous. I see a picture of eternity in that. We as Christians may suffer for a while but eventually God more than repays us, and we have eternity to look forward to.

We don't have a play by play of Jacob's parenting, but we do get the general idea. As I pointed out above in my reply to @AdHoc, Jacob experienced the exact same treatment himself from his own parents. 

Going even further back, Isaac was favoured over Ishmael. It seems to be a generational thing. 

What about Cain and Abel? God wasn't even rejecting Cain, though He did reject his offering and attempted to even parent him into making better choices. That was enough to make Cain commit the first ever murder.

Life isn't fair for sure, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to be, especially with our children, right?

I'm not trying to cast judgement, just trying to understand the the choices that were made, and gain some wisdom in the process.

[AdHoc]

15 minutes ago, SpiritSong said:

Interesting perspective, I hadn't really thought about it from that angle. Of course God can do what He likes, but it is up to the individual once their in the job to do the job. Saul had a choice, just as Solomon did. I wouldn't call that a case of favourtism but personal corruption. It's not God's favour I have a concern with either, it's man's judgement. 

I guess I just don't think favourtism from man helps anyone; either the favourite or the ones who suffer with the jealousy. Having been on both sides (I was the youngest child who then grew into the black sheep) I just find it super careless and unnecessary. It was a cultural attitude for us for sure, but that didn't make it any better.

I can only imagine the issues Joseph's brothers sat with in order to feel justified in doing what they did to him. I don't have sympathy for them in that regard but I do understand that resentment is a real thing. 

Even Jacob knew what that was like with Esau and birthright shenanigans and his father and mother showing open favourtism to them both.

It just doesn't seem healthy. I'm glad God used it for Joseph's good but I wouldn't wish what he went through on anyone.

 

 

The matter is a difficult one. Mostly, Americans with a certain prosperity post on the Forum. Because of your well-thought-out Constitution, you have a sense of equality and rights. But God is not bound by the American dream. The type of government that God designates "GOLD" is a form of government eschewed by Americans - that is, a totalitarian monarchy (Daniel Chapter 2). In the New Testament the word used to describe us is, without exception, "bond-slave" - a slave owned by His Master and who has no rights whatsoever. To one God gives ten Talents, social graces and eloquence. To another a slow mind and some deformity. He chooses the youngest of David's household to be a king, but chooses an ass to speak to Baalam. One is born into silk sheets and warmth and good food. Anther is born and barely survives the slums of Mumbai.

And all the while God does not explain Himself. But His reputation goes on ahead of Himself. He put His man, Adam, in a garden called "Pleasure". His promises to Abraham are pleasurable to contemplate. "ALL families of the earth are to be blessed" by Abraham's seed. When Jesus returns and judges the faithful will enter His "JOY". In His presence are "JOYS FOR EVERMORE". It is so obvious that God plans to benefit His creature.

Moses rides a veritable roller-coaster. He is born under threat of the sword and the Nile Crocodile. He is raised in affluence in Pharaoh's court "in all the wisdom and knowledge of Egypt". This changes abruptly at age 40 where he must swap the courts of the most powerful and knowledgeable dynasty known to the earth for the "back of the wilderness" and bleating sheep - and this for 40 years. The once aspirant to the throne is left unable to speak properly. Then he spends another 40 years listening to the "bleating" of a stiff-necked nation and is finally refused entry into that which he spent 120 years being prepared for. And if the story ended there, we would just have to say; God does not answer questions! But the story does not end there. A great warrior-angel is ordered to contend for the body of Moses, and lo, he is invited into the most intimate circle of the universe - the Kingdom of God on earth (Matthew 17) with Christ Himself and Elijah. What privilege! And the Author of this glorious ending is the One Who does what he likes among men " and no-one can stay His hand or say; "What doest thou --- ?!

Life's not fair .... but we will be well advised to accept what this gracious and generous God serves us. The end will be glorious.

[Neighbor]

On 8/3/2023 at 2:49 AM, SpiritSong said:

All this has led me to seek answers in God's Word, which in itself (Himself, really) is rich in promise of favour as well as a staunch advocate of justice and fairness. 

Was Joseph's descent and ascent fair? Moreover, was Jesus's? 

Was it fair for Joseph to put his brothers through the ringer like he did?

Was Jacob a fair father, especially for his time and culture?

 

What do you all think?

 

What do I think? Well right off the bat I think nobody promised me fair. Then I think, and thank God for not being fair with me by presenting to me what I deserve to receive; and instead having  taken that which I  deserve on so that I will not ever receive what I deserve.

Such mercy  from everlasting to everlasting  is  way awesome!

[SpiritSong]

20 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The matter is a difficult one. Mostly, Americans with a certain prosperity post on the Forum. Because of your well-thought-out Constitution, you have a sense of equality and rights. But God is not bound by the American dream. The type of government that God designates "GOLD" is a form of government eschewed by Americans - that is, a totalitarian monarchy (Daniel Chapter 2). In the New Testament the word used to describe us is, without exception, "bond-slave" - a slave owned by His Master and who has no rights whatsoever. To one God gives ten Talents, social graces and eloquence. To another a slow mind and some deformity. He chooses the youngest of David's household to be a king, but chooses an ass to speak to Baalam. One is born into silk sheets and warmth and good food. Anther is born and barely survives the slums of Mumbai.

And all the while God does not explain Himself. But His reputation goes on ahead of Himself. He put His man, Adam, in a garden called "Pleasure". His promises to Abraham are pleasurable to contemplate. "ALL families of the earth are to be blessed" by Abraham's seed. When Jesus returns and judges the faithful will enter His "JOY". In His presence are "JOYS FOR EVERMORE". It is so obvious that God plans to benefit His creature.

Moses rides a veritable roller-coaster. He is born under threat of the sword and the Nile Crocodile. He is raised in affluence in Pharaoh's court "in all the wisdom and knowledge of Egypt". This changes abruptly at age 40 where he must swap the courts of the most powerful and knowledgeable dynasty known to the earth for the "back of the wilderness" and bleating sheep - and this for 40 years. The once aspirant to the throne is left unable to speak properly. Then he spends another 40 years listening to the "bleating" of a stiff-necked nation and is finally refused entry into that which he spent 120 years being prepared for. And if the story ended there, we would just have to say; God does not answer questions! But the story does not end there. A great warrior-angel is ordered to contend for the body of Moses, and lo, he is invited into the most intimate circle of the universe - the Kingdom of God on earth (Matthew 17) with Christ Himself and Elijah. What privilege! And the Author of this glorious ending is the One Who does what he likes among men " and no-one can stay His hand or say; "What doest thou --- ?!

Life's not fair .... but we will be well advised to accept what this gracious and generous God serves us. The end will be glorious.

Posting as a non American, I love my American brethren. Blessings from UK 👍

Life is indeed not fair but that doesn't not mean we shouldn't try to be. Nothing can compare to God's mercy and grace, but we can try to be gracious to all 🙏

Edited August 5, 2023 by SpiritSong
Missed out a word.

[SpiritSong]

10 hours ago, Neighbor said:

What do I think? Well right off the bat I think nobody promised me fair. Then I think, and thank God for not being fair with me by presenting to me what I deserve to receive; and instead having  taken that which I  deserve on so that I will not ever receive what I deserve.

Such mercy  from everlasting to everlasting  is  way awesome!

Fair is not promised but isn't what we should all be after? Not as entitlement but bestowing the same grace on others that has been bestowed on us? 

Not trying to be naive, just...  wouldn't it be nice?

Edited August 4, 2023 by SpiritSong
Grammer