Doctrine of Imminency

[Mr. M]

14 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

This theology violates what is known as the Doctrine of Imminency, that Jesus could return at “any time” for His bride. The apostle Paul thought the harpazo could happen in his day by including a personal pronoun, we.

What are your thoughts?

Can you provide the verses from which this doctrine is derived?

The fact that we do not know the day or the hour doesn't imply immanency.

Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Spirit:

‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” 

Acts 3:

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things,

which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

The Lord comes suddenly, in the "twinkling of an eye".

Mark 13:35 Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming—

in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning— 

36 lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping.

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:

and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger

of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

 

 

[AnOrangeCat]

3 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I agree that date setting is to be abstained from, as it harms Christianity and makes us look foolish. I do think there is a prophetic blueprint associated with festivals.

Completely agreed on both. We see a lot of earthly things used to illustrate heavenly and prophetic things. The festivals being another illustration for us to learn from seems in line with how God communicates with us in understandable ways. Beyond the date setting I had a more personal negative experience with growing up in a highly rapture focused home. I was reading apocalyptic literature and hearing televangelists speaking on the topic when my age was still in the single digits. It was really interesting but also frightening. For many long years I felt compelled to randomly stop what I was doing and get up to see if the people I respected as believers in my house were still there so I'd know I hadn't missed the rapture. Any time of day or night, and it was always accompanied by a sense of panic. I also observed as I was growing up that with some of my family there was a sort of rapture induced apathy. It all impressed on me a need for both discernment and impressing on people the importance of using our time here wisely.

3 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

If I recall, the Feast of Trumpets is set from the lunar cycle; thus, it is either in late September or early October and is calculated and predictable.

Yeah. The Jewish calendar uses both the sun and the moon but seems to lean lunar in practice. They have a leap year to keep the calendar more or less in line with the seasons, but as would be expected it's different from ours though it serves the same function.

3 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

If memory serves, the timing of the first shofar (trumpet) is unknown. The last trump blast is the longest and loudest. Technically this is not a date or hour setting, in my opinion.

Yeah, I'd also not consider it a date or hour setting. It seems more like... "You'll know it when you hear it." and a signal. As for the timing? What I've read indicates that blowing the shofar, including the last instance, is keyed to certain daily observances that are also more or less predictable. As a Jew Slibhin could probably give a definitive answer, though.

3 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

As a pretribulation believer, we can know the “season” when the Rapture will occur, and I believe this generation is that season. For the first time in history, there is a convergence of everything prophetic for the end-time generation.

Yeah. God gives us these hints for reasons. Ideally our faith is increased and we take the approaching day to heart.

Edit!: Just as an added little bit of info the shofar isn't blown on the sabbath.

Edited August 18, 2023 by AnOrangeCat

[Dennis1209]

7 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Can you provide the verses from which this doctrine is derived?

The fact that we do not know the day or the hour doesn't imply immanency.

I am not referring to “going beyond a given domain, internal dwelling, or such.”

There are several scriptures from where the doctrine of “imminency” was developed. I am pressed for time, but this is one of them.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The apostle Paul used a personal pronoun (we) that included himself, indicating Paul thought the harpazo could happen at any time, even during his lifetime.

I made an error; I meant to put it as a question. Does the doctrine of imminency…

[Mr. M]

18 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The apostle Paul used a personal pronoun (we) that included himself, indicating Paul thought the harpazo could happen at any time, even during his lifetime.

I certainly can see why someone might feel that Paul believed this. 

One should be reminded that this is exactly how Christ taught that we should live...

Luke 12:35-40 Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately. Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them. And if he should come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Paul was most certainly NOT developing a doctrine of immanency, or any type of eschatology for that matter. He was teaching, as always, the manner in which those in Christ should be conducting themselves.

1 Thes 4:9-14 But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another; and indeed you do so toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more; that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you, that you may walk properly toward those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing. But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus...

 

[TheBlade]

Hey all.. "The Doctrine of" or *ism's.. never ending lol I mean no disrespect Dennis just thinking over all.

I always wonder how would I believe when all I could do was listen to someone talk about the Torah. The 12 were the only ones that heard "I go to prepare a place for you". So Pauls 1st letter talked about being caught up and he was not taught by the 12.  The 1st book in the canon was what James. Its so easy for us to just talk about he 4 gospels and then add Romans or James or 1st John or Rev to all of it and POOF we have PRINT! 

Now I think we know I believe there are not signs no events have to take place for Christ to return. That being said one has to ask.. if Christ can come back any moment to gather us what about Peter? Peter Christ said that he would live till he became an old man? The gospel of John was not written until what decades after Peter's death so some say it would not matter at all since.. by the time it was written Peter was already dead. Some make a big deal about how Christ said Peter would die so.. how could Christ return at any moment  there are allot more which oddly not talked about by those that do not believe He can return any moment.

 

 

[farouk]

On 8/18/2023 at 6:35 PM, Dennis1209 said:

I am not referring to “going beyond a given domain, internal dwelling, or such.”

There are several scriptures from where the doctrine of “imminency” was developed. I am pressed for time, but this is one of them.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The apostle Paul used a personal pronoun (we) that included himself, indicating Paul thought the harpazo could happen at any time, even during his lifetime.

I made an error; I meant to put it as a question. Does the doctrine of imminency…

Hi @Dennis1209 Paul also seemed to focus on three timescales in 1 Cor. 11.26: the Lord's death at the Cross; the remembrance of Him at the present time and His coming for the church in the future.