Rapture: to be or not to be?

[The Light]

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Such signs can occur during AND after the tribulation.  What is needed to prove your claim is a verse that unambigously describes Jesus coming in the clouds and taking resurrected believers back to heaven.  There aren't any.  That would be the ONLY unambiguous verse.

I have proven that Jesus comes at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation and before the wrath of God.

It's right there in front of you. And yet you can't acknowledge it because the truth does not agree with what you have been taught.

To understand the book of Revelation one has to accept what is written. But that can be a challenge because there seems to be things that don't make sense. Instead of taking a false conclusion and then claiming what is written is incorrect, one must accept what is written and figure out why our false conclusions are wrong.

There are few that can accept what is written, so there are few that understand the book of Revelation.

[FreeGrace]

12 minutes ago, The Light said:

FreeGrace said: 

OK, let's not get into the insult mode.  If you really do have unambiguous evidence from the Bible, just share it.  It's up to each person to grasp what is shared.  Don't demean YOURSELF by insinuating that I have blinders on or just can't comprehend, or whatever else is typically thrown out. If you have actual evidence, just share.  Let me look at it, if you aren't afraid of having to defend it.

Sorry. I've just seen the past results.

I'll take that you have no unambiguous verses.  I am very HAPPY to share the verses that are unambiguous.

12 minutes ago, The Light said:

No sir. I just showed you the signs of the sun, moon and stars MARK the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 to the 6th seal. Undeniable evidence.

And I just showed you that those signs can occur more than once.  So your verse isn't unambiguous.

12 minutes ago, The Light said:

Then you say that it is after the tribulation so it is talking about the second advent. You are not understanding the verse proves that the tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal.

Then there's the 7th seal, 7 trumpets and 7 bowls.  So, no, the trib is over WHEN Jesus comes back.  Not before.

12 minutes ago, The Light said:

Then the wrath of God begins. The second advert occurs at the end of wrath which is at the end of the 7th trumpet.

Rev 20 shows when the Second Advent occurs.  Believe it.

12 minutes ago, The Light said:

So Jesus returns for a harvest at the 6th seal. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins when the 1st trumpet is blown. Wrath is over at the 7th as Jesus returns to the earth and sets up His kingdom.

Revelation 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The final week begins when the 7 year covenant is confirmed. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, pretrib, then the seals can be opened. The first four seals are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24. The fifth seal is the great tribulation. At the end of the great tribulation, the sixth seal is opened. The sixth seal is the second coming of Jesus. Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect. They return to heaven.

Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The great multitude is in heaven for the marriage supper while Gods wrath is on the earth. Then Armageddon happens as the armies of Heaven return to the earth. Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives and sets up His kingdom.

I have shown you that Jesus comes IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation. We can see that this happens at the 6th seal as it is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Tribulation is over. There is a harvest and then wrath begins.

just your opinions.  Nothing unambiguous that SAYS what you say.

[FreeGrace]

7 minutes ago, The Light said:

I have proven that Jesus comes at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation and before the wrath of God.

No, you haven't.  

7 minutes ago, The Light said:

It's right there in front of you.

No, it's not.

7 minutes ago, The Light said:

And yet you can't acknowledge it because the truth does not agree with what you have been taught.

I will always acknowledge what the Bible says unambiguously.

7 minutes ago, The Light said:

To understand the book of Revelation one has to accept what is written.

What a snarky comment.  You STILL haven't shown any verses that unambiguously SAY what you SAY.  Are you really not aware of this?

7 minutes ago, The Light said:

But that can be a challenge because there seems to be things that don't make sense. Instead of taking a false conclusion and then claiming what is written is incorrect, one must accept what is written and figure out why our false conclusions are wrong.

There are few that can accept what is written, so there are few that understand the book of Revelation.

I don't have any false conclusions.  I would say that you do.

[The Light]

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Please show me where any of these harvests are tied to end times.  You know, unambiguous verses.

Are you not aware that the feasts of God are the plan for His people?

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 

 

[The Light]

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Nice try.  But not unambiguous.  How about 1 Cor 15:23?

 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse is unambiguous.  The subject is resurrection, and the first part references both Jesus Christ and ALL believers in the words "each in turn".  iow, Jesus is first to receive the resurrection body that is immortal, glorified.  That means NONE of the examples in the OT or NT where dead people were raised back to life received a resurrection body.  ALL of them died again, as they lacked immortality.

Second, ONLY Jesus is referred to as "firstfruits" in regard to THE resurrection.  btw, Jesus ONLY referred to resurrection in the singular.  There aren't multiple resurrections, only one for believers, and one for unbelievers.

Third, the words "those who belong to Him" include EVERY believer from Adam forward.  So this verse proves that there will only be one resurrection, and it will include all believers from all time.  Since every believer does belong to Him.

Fourth, we know WHEN the singular resurrection will occur, which is "when He comes", a direct reference to the Second Advent.

Rev 20 mentions trib martyrs being resurrected, which is after the tribulation.  Doesn't have to mention everyone, since we have 1 Cor 15:23 that says all believers will be resurrected.

This is unambiguous.

Unambiguous?

1 Thes 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

One resurrection????

In 1 Thes 4 we see the dead in Christ rise first. Then after the alive are caught up.

In 1 Cor 15 Both the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.

One resurrection of the righteous????

 

[The Light]

24 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

And I just showed you that those signs can occur more than once.  So your verse isn't unambiguous.

 

If you showed me with scripture, I missed it. I think you made a comment without proof.

I used scripture to prove that the signs of the sun, moon and stars mark the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

You cannot disprove that...........FACT. You can deny it.......FACT.

[The Light]

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Allow to grow together BOTH  (Adjective - Accusative Neuter Plural)
until the harvest (Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular)
and in the time (Noun - Dative Masculine Singular)
of the (Article - Genitive Masculine Singular)
harvest (Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular)
I will say to the harvesters (Noun Dative Masculine PLURAL)
Gather first the weeds (PLURAL)
and bind them into bundles in order to burn them; and (CONJUNCTION)
the wheat (Noun - Accusative Masculine Singular)
gather together into the barn of me


No matter WHAT SPIN is put towards this,

It is written as A SINGULAR HARVEST

WITH MULTIPLE harvesters.   

NOT multiple harvests each with a single harvester.  

And yet I showed you a harvest in Revelation 14 that shows the righteous are gathered first. So there is obviously more than one harvest.

[The Light]

7 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

That would be after this tribulation and not before.Because the people who names are written in the lambs book of life are not delivered untill after this tribulation.

 

Daniel 12:1

At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

 

 

So I take it you believe your name is not written in the lambs book of life.

No one is delivered  before this delivery who names are written.Unless you believe Elon musk is going to wisk you away in spaceX ,your not leaving this earth .

And this is the whole point...............The tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal.

Then the wrath of God begins. The tribulation is not the wrath of God.

[FreeGrace]

10 minutes ago, The Light said:

Unambiguous?

Yes, all the verses you quoted didn't SAY what you SAY.  That means "ambiguous".

10 minutes ago, The Light said:

1 Thes 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Clearly the Second Advent.  You know, "when He comes" per 1 Cor 15:23 when ALL believers will be resurrected.

10 minutes ago, The Light said:

1 Corinthians 15

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

One resurrection????

Yes.  I'll quote 1 Cor 15:23 again.  

 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 

Please explain what "those who belong to Him" refers to.

10 minutes ago, The Light said:

In 1 Thes 4 we see the dead in Christ rise first. Then after the alive are caught up.

In 1 Cor 15 Both the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.

One resurrection of the righteous????

I guess you missed the whole passage.  So, here it is:

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 

15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

v.14 Jesus brings ALL the saints who have already died and have been in heaven.

v.15 shows the dead saints will get their resurrection body FIRST, before those who are still alive.

v.16 makes clear that Jesus comes from heaven, and those who came with Him "will rise first", meaning THE resurrection.

v.17 makes clear that those who are still alive "will be caught up TOGETHER WITH THEM in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air".  Unambiguous.

10 minutes ago, The Light said:

 

 

[FreeGrace]

11 minutes ago, The Light said:

If you showed me with scripture, I missed it. I think you made a comment without proof.

Why would anyone demand that the Bible meet THEIR OWN demands and needs to STATE specifically that the signs from heaven can occur more than once.

Some things are just so obvious they don't need to be stated.

11 minutes ago, The Light said:

I used scripture to prove that the signs of the sun, moon and stars mark the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

You cannot disprove that...........FACT. You can deny it.......FACT.

No you didn't.  There is nothing in the description of the 6th seal that mentions Jesus coming to earth, or even in the clouds.

Rev 6

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 

13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 

14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 

16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 

17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

There is NO mention of Jesus coming to earth or the clouds.  

You have not proved your claim.

I have proved mine.