The Difficult Sayings Of Jesus

[JimmyB]

On 8/26/2023 at 7:44 PM, Starise said:

To a new believer or an unbeliever, some of the statements Jesus made can be reason to scratch our heads wondering what He actually was trying to put across, and it's no secret that a lot of what He said was intentionally cryptic..

I remember the first time I read the passage about Jesus where He stated we should pluck our eye out or cut off our hand if it causes us to sin, for it is better to lose an eye or hand than go to hell. Whaaaaaaat??????

I immediately went to the visual mental picture and the thought of it turned me off.

Some people will read this passage and say, He's lost it. This Jesus character is just weird. Quite honestly, He could have appeared to be a little unusual. Difficult I suppose to be God in human form and not be different.He was also magnetic to those who He called, and in other circles at home he was just an average guy. Mainly because I don't believe He did most of His miracles or started teaching until Later. If you had been in His presence and seen Him Heal or feed the 5000 or speak, there would likely be no question.

The statement I mentioned that Jesus said, well I have pondered that one a lot since. If one of us was caught up in a serious sin that involved the eyes, and if we could be in hell for even 30 minutes, then I believe the statement He made would begin to make some sense. Most tend to underestimate our sins in a very big way. Jesus was making a point for how serious sin and hell is. From that perspective it makes sense to me.

Another statement of Jesus  the disciples wondered about was when He said the temple would be destroyed and He would raise it in three days.

Jesus was referring to his body and rising from the dead three days after His death by crucifixion.

And then we have the parables Jesus taught where He admitted that what he was saying was intentionally kept from those who were not intended to 'get' the message.

 

If you read what Jesus often said symbolically, then it all makes sense.  He often spoke in parables and used hyperbole at other times to get His point across.  Clearly, He did not intend for people to mutilate themselves.

[Retrobyter]

On 8/26/2023 at 9:44 PM, Starise said:

To a new believer or an unbeliever, some of the statements Jesus made can be reason to scratch our heads wondering what He actually was trying to put across, and it's no secret that a lot of what He said was intentionally cryptic..

I remember the first time I read the passage about Jesus where He stated we should pluck our eye out or cut off our hand if it causes us to sin, for it is better to lose an eye or hand than go to hell. Whaaaaaaat??????

I immediately went to the visual mental picture and the thought of it turned me off.

Some people will read this passage and say, He's lost it. This Jesus character is just weird.

Shalom, Starise.

Of course! That's why they said He had a devil! They were calling Him MAD!

On 8/26/2023 at 9:44 PM, Starise said:

Quite honestly, He could have appeared to be a little unusual. Difficult I suppose to be God in human form and not be different.He was also magnetic to those who He called, and in other circles at home he was just an average guy. Mainly because I don't believe He did most of His miracles or started teaching until Later. If you had been in His presence and seen Him Heal or feed the 5000 or speak, there would likely be no question.

The statement I mentioned that Jesus said, well I have pondered that one a lot since. If one of us was caught up in a serious sin that involved the eyes, and if we could be in hell for even 30 minutes, then I believe the statement He made would begin to make some sense. Most tend to underestimate our sins in a very big way. Jesus was making a point for how serious sin and hell is. From that perspective it makes sense to me.

Well, yeah! What did they THINK He was going to do when He strode into the Temple courts where the moneychangers' tables were set up with a WHIP in His hand?!

On 8/26/2023 at 9:44 PM, Starise said:

Another statement of Jesus  the disciples wondered about was when He said the temple would be destroyed and He would raise it in three days.

Jesus was referring to his body and rising from the dead three days after His death by crucifixion.

Again, yes, but think about it: It would be even FAR MORE DIFFICULT to accept that He was going to rise from the dead, than He was going to rebuild the Temple in three days!

On 8/26/2023 at 9:44 PM, Starise said:

And then we have the parables Jesus taught where He admitted that what he was saying was intentionally kept from those who were not intended to 'get' the message.

Also, don't forget His NOT-SO-SUBTLE JABS at the Pharisees and the not-so-religious leaders in Jerusalem:

Luke 19:11-27  (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

"'Occupy till I come.'

14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

"'We will not have this man to reign over us!'

15 "And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16Then came the first, saying,

"'Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.'

17 "And he said unto him,

"'Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.'

18 "And the second came, saying,

"'Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.'

19 "And he said likewise to him,

"'Be thou also over five cities.'

20 "And another came, saying,

"'Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.'

22 "And he saith unto him,

"'Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?'

24 "And he said unto them that stood by,

"'Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.'

25 "(And they said unto him,

"'Lord, he hath ten pounds!') 

26"'For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and SLAY THEM BEFORE ME!' "

[ravindran]

We went through a series in our Church just on the Bible. The Pastor was going through series of questions that congregation could ask about Bible. One of my questions was around hermeneutics. What principles should we apply to interpret a passage as allegorical, hyperbole, figure of speech, prophecy, poem or just take it literally. Our Pastor did give a good explanation. We can come up with some guiding principles. But some would always argue to mis-categorize them. As an example, someone can claim that Jesus promoted self-amputation. This should be looked upon as hyperbole or figure of speech. One litmus test would be to interpret Scripture with Scripture. Does the interpretation line up with rest of the Scripture? Certainly self-amputation won't. Thus, Jesus did not mean this literally

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, ravindran said:

We went through a series in our Church just on the Bible. The Pastor was going through series of questions that congregation could ask about Bible. One of my questions was around hermeneutics. What principles should we apply to interpret a passage as allegorical, hyperbole, figure of speech, prophecy, poem or just take it literally. Our Pastor did give a good explanation. We can come up with some guiding principles. But some would always argue to mis-categorize them. As an example, someone can claim that Jesus promoted self-amputation. This should be looked upon as hyperbole or figure of speech. One litmus test would be to interpret Scripture with Scripture. Does the interpretation line up with rest of the Scripture? Certainly self-amputation won't. Thus, Jesus did not mean this literally.

Shalom, ravindran.

Perhaps, but I think He was stressing the importance of not allowing oneself to sin or lead others into sin. He was punctuating it with the suggested self=amputation or the infliction of losing an eye to keep oneself from sin. After all, if one believes in a LITERAL resurrection (and I do), then one will realize that such a resurrection as described in Ezekiel 37 requires us to believe that God will perform an act of CREATION! Such an act will replace severed limbs and the restoration of sight! Indeed, such miracles were the indicators of the Messiah's Coming during the First Century, and they will be the earmarks of the Second Coming, as well!

[jesusandliberty]

The verse that terrified me on first read was Matthew 7: 22-24

²² On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ ²³ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

 

If there was ever a verse to keep me from going back to the old me this one is it!

[Starise]

On 8/28/2023 at 10:47 AM, garee said:

 Thanks Amen good examples. . .

Gotta love parables the signified tongue of God 

Sorry in advance for the rambling 

Jesus the most misunderstood person that ever walked on earth. .  walking doing the will of another perfectly.His own family because of the parable gospel understanding hid they    rejected him  the lonely comforted 

I believe supported in the shortest verve jesus wept at mankind's unbelief (no faith that could please Him, the one source of all Christian faith called the mutual faith of Christ a understanding from God    

I would offer to share keeping in mind what I call the exclusive "creative law of faith" .

"Let there be" as a law not subject to change  and "it was good" That seen, testifying of him not seen. . . the eternal good one.  

Parables as prophecy teach us how to understand the hidden things of God called hidden manna in Revelation 2:17 the signified understanding of God not seen, ,  called faith . . . .a picture of his labor of love working in us yoked with us.

Like honey metaphor for His living word the taste of manna.  it enlightens ones eyes making the load lighter as with Jonathan and David fleeing from the enemy. Eat to much lose everything  .

He informs his children of light. . . let it shine . . revealing the reflected glory of the Father 

Psalm 19:10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

Exodus 16:31 And the house of Israel called the name thereof Manna: and it was like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey.

1 Samuel 14:27 But Jonathan heard not when his father charged the people with the oath: wherefore he put forth the end of the rod that was in his hand, and dipped it in an honeycomb, and put his hand to his mouth; and his eyes were enlightened.

We should be careful on how we hear when rightly dividing the parables. .  trust the Spirit that works from within (as it is written) that he will continue to teach and comfort as he promised.   

It would seem those in whom the gospel was hid  they were under the wrong kind of fear. Turning the fear of God upside down.   

I would suggest dig a little get a taste of honey  in the land of milk and honey. Milk of the word teaching us our Father in heaven is Gracious we like babes put our full trust in his hands 

Builds up strong bones of faith LOL ( Got Faith?)  Building up towards the meat  finishing the requires of the will  of God .The both will (milk) and power meat )to finish to his glory 

1 Peter 2:1-3King James Version Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

John 4: 33-35  Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do (reveal )the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

You could say; to will (declare) and to do (God is v ery good) God alone goooooooood 

Healthy diet  The mixing of faith spoken of in Hebrew 4 .Milk for the strong bones of faith , meat for the power of faith working with us. .  honey the sweet milk of bees . .  after the works done    

Thanks for these thoughts brother. I see several divisions  how a person might interpret what Jesus said.

-Those who are unsaved, and critical from the get go.

-Those who are unsaved, but desire to figure out what He said.

-Those who are new believers and as such, are only beginning a study of these things.

-Older more mature believers who can still benefit from reading these things again, but have had many of these things revealed to them.

Rather than read all of the parables and sayings of Jesus at once, I have found it easier to take them one at a time. Often they tie together and have similar meanings. And one thing we are all sometimes prone to do- Jumping to conclusions too early. 

I have learned not to always trust bible footnotes because some of them don't tell us the whole story.

Now I've made these investigations maybe sound complicated to some, but really they aren't, and often a saved Spirit filled believer will be shown the meaning right away.Other times it requires some digging, but even that isn't terribly painful if we have the right references. Sometimes a church group discussion is helpful. Even if a person is seen as wrong, it gives us something to further investigate. Most of this is not intentional, but simply incomplete information. 

[farouk]

14 hours ago, jesusandliberty said:

The verse that terrified me on first read was Matthew 7: 22-24

²² On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ ²³ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

 

If there was ever a verse to keep me from going back to the old me this one is it!

@jesusandliberty Similar to what the Lord Jesus said in Matthew 7.16-20:

"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

¹⁷ Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

¹⁸ A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

¹⁹ Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

²⁰ Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

[garee]

22 hours ago, Starise said:

Thanks for these thoughts brother. I see several divisions  how a person might interpret what Jesus said.

-Those who are unsaved, and critical from the get go.

-Those who are unsaved, but desire to figure out what He said.

-Those who are new believers and as such, are only beginning a study of these things.

-Older more mature believers who can still benefit from reading these things again, but have had many of these things revealed to them.

Rather than read all of the parables and sayings of Jesus at once, I have found it easier to take them one at a time. Often they tie together and have similar meanings. And one thing we are all sometimes prone to do- Jumping to conclusions too early. Probably the worst thing anyone could do with respect to this- Listen to a cult teacher of anyone who is fringe on the way they teach. Obvioulsy a newb sometimes won't pick up on this, so comparative analysis is best in my opinion, coupled with prayer for the Lord's leading in the interpretation.

I have learned not to always trust bible footnotes because some of them don't tell us the whol story.

Now I've made these investigations maybe sound complicated to some, but really they aren't, and often a saved Spirit filled believer will be shown the meaning right away.Other times it requires some digging, but even that isn't terribly painful if we have the right references. Sometimes a church group discussion is helpful. Even if a person is seen as wrong, it gives us something to further investigate. Most of this is not intentional, but simply incomplete information. 

Parables must be rightly divided .No adding or subtracting with the oral traditions as private interpretations of dying mankind .

Parables main goal is teach mankind "how" to walk by faith the unseen things of God mixed with the temporal historical things seen. .  The rightly dividing prescription 2 Corinthians 4:18 

The temporal and the eternal understanding again must be mixed if we say we are yoked with Christ. No mixing of the two  no gospel rest (Hebrew 4:1-2 

I would agree not intentional but in the process of learning we can error. misinterpreting does not mean a perdon has fallen from grace  More of a person would have to stay after school and study. . .all pass 

 

 

Christ the teacher declared if he began the good work of teaching work in us  he will continue to the end. some are slower learners (myself) other quicker but in the end  only the Son of man used as a parable did the will of the Father perfectly  to show the power of the Father yoked with Jesus the Son of man .   

[Dennis1209]

On 8/28/2023 at 2:06 PM, ravindran said:

We went through a series in our Church just on the Bible. The Pastor was going through series of questions that congregation could ask about Bible. One of my questions was around hermeneutics. What principles should we apply to interpret a passage as allegorical, hyperbole, figure of speech, prophecy, poem or just take it literally. Our Pastor did give a good explanation. We can come up with some guiding principles. But some would always argue to mis-categorize them. As an example, someone can claim that Jesus promoted self-amputation. This should be looked upon as hyperbole or figure of speech. One litmus test would be to interpret Scripture with Scripture. Does the interpretation line up with rest of the Scripture? Certainly self-amputation won't. Thus, Jesus did not mean this literally

The phrase I have adopted is hermeneutical hygiene.

[Anne2]

On 8/26/2023 at 6:44 PM, Starise said:

To a new believer or an unbeliever, some of the statements Jesus made can be reason to scratch our heads wondering what He actually was trying to put across, and it's no secret that a lot of what He said was intentionally cryptic..

I remember the first time I read the passage about Jesus where He stated we should pluck our eye out or cut off our hand if it causes us to sin, for it is better to lose an eye or hand than go to hell. Whaaaaaaat??????

I immediately went to the visual mental picture and the thought of it turned me off.

Some people will read this passage and say, He's lost it. This Jesus character is just weird. Quite honestly, He could have appeared to be a little unusual. Difficult I suppose to be God in human form and not be different.He was also magnetic to those who He called, and in other circles at home he was just an average guy. Mainly because I don't believe He did most of His miracles or started teaching until Later. If you had been in His presence and seen Him Heal or feed the 5000 or speak, there would likely be no question.

The statement I mentioned that Jesus said, well I have pondered that one a lot since. If one of us was caught up in a serious sin that involved the eyes, and if we could be in hell for even 30 minutes, then I believe the statement He made would begin to make some sense. Most tend to underestimate our sins in a very big way. Jesus was making a point for how serious sin and hell is. From that perspective it makes sense to me.

Another statement of Jesus  the disciples wondered about was when He said the temple would be destroyed and He would raise it in three days.

Jesus was referring to his body and rising from the dead three days after His death by crucifixion.

And then we have the parables Jesus taught where He admitted that what he was saying was intentionally kept from those who were not intended to 'get' the message.

 

I have wondered about the collective nature of sin under the law? 

Nu 14:15  Now if thou shalt kill all this people as one man, then the nations which have heard the fame of thee will speak, saying,

Num 16:21  Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.
Nu 16:22  And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

Joh 11:50  Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

These are those cut off?