Believers' Accountability and the Judgement Seat of Christ

[Your closest friendnt]

 

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

"on that day" is a reference to the future Great White Throne judgment.  So this crowd is composed of only unbelievers.  It is noteworthy that the crowd based their appeal for entering the kingdom on THEIR WORKS, what they DID.  Yes, they addresses the King as "Lord".  This shows they were religious.  Yes, they did great things "in Your Name".  But Jesus wasn't impressed at all.  Why?  Because they NEVER believed in Him as their Savior.  That's what "I never knew you" refers to.  Of course God is omniscient and knows everything (1 John 3:20).  But, as you rightly note, they did not have an "intimate relationship" with the Lord.  iow, they were never saved.  And their defense for entering the kingdom was based on their works, and NOT the sacrificial work of Christ on the cross.

 

..Mathew 7:21-23 KJV 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

   *The background is that Jesus said that before the Cross and to the people who were under the Sinai Covenant. 

At that time Jesus had not die, the Gospel was not preached to no one and no one was Saved by the blood of the Slain Lamb of God. 

Jesus acknowledged the good works of the people, those people who did all those things while they were under the Sinai Covenant. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[Dennis1209]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You have written a thoughtful courteous reply. But the statement above seems to have inadvertently missed something.

There is overwhelming evidence that these men claiming the Kingdom were good Christians.
1. The first point is that the Judgment of Christian and unbeliever, as you have rightly said, is a different day altogether. The Christian is judged at the Bema, most probably in the air after rapture because a "Bema" is a "traveling throne". The living unbeliever is judged at the "THRONE of His glory" on earth after the Kingdom is set up. The dead unbeliever is judged at the White THRONE a thousand years later. The point is, there are no unbelievers at the judgment of those claiming the kingdom. They are all Christians.

2. These men of Matthew 7:21-23 knew Jesus during their lifetime. The did many wonders in His Name.

3. These men knew Who Jesus was. The Unbelievers ("ALL Nations"- Matthew 25:31-32) did not know who Jesus was.

4. According to Mark 16:17 only Christians can cast out demons. Added to this, our Lord Himself said that Satan would never cast his own out as it would lead to the collapse of his kingdom.

5. Egypt showed that Satan's emissaries can do SOME wonders. But these did MANY wonders - even a sign of an Apostle (2nd Cor.12.12)

6. To cast out demons and do many wonders needs POWER. Jesus cast out demons with the finger of God - not by Himself. To get the power to do this one needs the Holy Spirit. To get the Holy Spirit one needs to be baptized (Act.2:38, Chapter 19).

7. The accusation of the Lord is not that the works were iniquitous. It was that they had not done the will of the Father when doing these works. The works themselves were good. The men were loose cannons.

8. To have access to the Kingdom one must be born again (Jn.3:3-5). Our Lord did not deny their claim. they were refused because of WORKS.

It seems to me that these were born-again, baptized believers who possessed the power of the Holy Spirit, but who had acted without orders. The cause is plain. the Greek word for "knew" means "intimate knowledge" like in Matthew 1:25.

In every case the Kingdom is gained, or attained to, by WORKS. It is FAITH that puts sins away, cause the rebirth, causes one to partake of the divine life, makes one the son of God and makes one heir to the promises. It is the RIGHTEOUS that gains the Kingdom (1st Cor.6:9-10, Gal.5:21, Eph.5:5 etc.). 

I think we have discussed this before; with my memory, I could use a refresher. I will relate the following to the Bema Seat judgment and the fruits, or no fruits and rewards of our labor.

Salvation is set apart from works and fruit-bearing; as we all know, works have not and cannot save anyone. Are you saying one with genuine saving faith (a Christian) earns his or her way into the Kingdom of Christ (the millennium) as a reward?

I recall some of your thoughts on this subject but refresh my memory and those reading this thread.

Jesus talked about His kingdom in parables, and I am pointing to the parable of the talents (Matt. 25). The example of one of them who hid and buried his one talent is named a servant; he had the fear of his Lord. The relationship between Master and servant was severed with what God had entrusted to him. The Master rejects and banishes him from His presence.

Matthew 25:30 (KJV) And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

At least two views of the above verse exist, and outer darkness could be Hell. Only Jesus uses the description of “outer darkness” five times. The last use is the best description of how to interpret it:

Luke 13:28 (KJV) There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

I can interpret this in two ways.

·         In comparing the rich man in Hades and Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom, the rich man could see and communicate with Abraham between a great gulf. Whether Lazarus was in Heaven or paradise below the ground is irrelevant to the discussion. The point is the rich man (lost-unsaved) was aware of everything and had all his senses and facilities. Those “thrust out” will see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. His inactivity forfeited no usury and rewards—a servant (disciple) who never knew his Master.

·         The millennial kingdom of Jesus can be described as the Kingdom of Light. Where the Lord physically is and reigns is Heaven. I can also interpret outer darkness as being excluded (cast out) from participating in the millennial reign. If one is “thrust out” of somewhere, one has to be there initially before being kicked out.

If this is bullet number two, I surmise this takes place at the Bema Seat, and a loss of the reward to participate in the kingdom of Christ for one thousand years. This servant is worthless.

According to Matthew 24:51 (KJV) And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

In Matthew chapter 24, the fate of the wicked and useless servants is answered. Cut him asunder may mean severely disciplined, cut off, or maybe be literal.

Summarizing: If we are standing before the Bema Seat, it is not for condemnation but for rewards or lack thereof. Crowns, if any, will be awarded and appointments for service in the Kingdom of Jesus (rewards). Outer darkness is the opposite of light; therefore, I believe it references Hell, only used by Jesus five times.

If it is works and fruit that earn our way into the kingdom of God, the presence of Jesus, how do we quantify how many or what works and fruit?

 

[FreeGrace]

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

FreeGrace said: 

Yes, they did great things "in Your Name".  But Jesus wasn't impressed at all.  Why?  Because they NEVER believed in Him as their Savior.  That's what "I never knew you" refers to.  Of course God is omniscient and knows everything (1 John 3:20).  But, as you rightly note, they did not have an "intimate relationship" with the Lord.  iow, they were never saved.  And their defense for entering the kingdom was based on their works, and NOT the sacrificial work of Christ on the cross.

You have written a thoughtful courteous reply.

Thank you.

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But the statement above seems to have inadvertently missed something.

There is overwhelming evidence that these men claiming the Kingdom were good Christians.
1. The first point is that the Judgment of Christian and unbeliever, as you have rightly said, is a different day altogether. The Christian is judged at the Bema, most probably in the air after rapture because a "Bema" is a "traveling throne". The living unbeliever is judged at the "THRONE of His glory" on earth after the Kingdom is set up. The dead unbeliever is judged at the White THRONE a thousand years later. The point is, there are no unbelievers at the judgment of those claiming the kingdom. They are all Christians.

Sorry, but I'm not following this.  The Bible is plain about there being just one resurrection for all believers and one for all unbelievers.  Rev 20 puts the resurrection of believers after the Tribulation at the Second Advent, and the resurrection for all unbelievers 1,000 years later, which is at the end of the MK.  I've never heard of a "traveling throne", or "throne of His glory".

They are not Christians because Jesus plainly told them "I NEVER knew you".  He couldn't have said that to former believers.

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

2. These men of Matthew 7:21-23 knew Jesus during their lifetime. The did many wonders in His Name.

They certainly knew about Jesus.  They were religious, as I said.  This doesn't prove they ever believed in Him for salvation.  And their appeal wasn't on their faith in Him at all, but rather their faith in what THEY DID.

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

3. These men knew Who Jesus was. The Unbelievers ("ALL Nations"- Matthew 25:31-32) did not know who Jesus was.

Nearly everyone on earth today knows who Jesus is.  Doesn't mean they believe in Him for salvation.

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

.4. According to Mark 16:17 only Christians can cast out demons. Added to this, our Lord Himself said that Satan would never cast his own out as it would lead to the collapse of his kingdom.

Satan is the master deceiver, according to the Bible and He deceives the whole world.  If a fake healer commands a demon to depart a demon possessed person, and Satan tells the demon to depart, in order to give credibility to the fale healer, he sure will.  In Acts 19, there were men who were "driving out evil spirits" (v.13).  They even "invoked the name of the Lord", and the 7 idiot sons of Sceva were doing it.  And the demon possessed man beat the snot out of them! 

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

5. Egypt showed that Satan's emissaries can do SOME wonders. But these did MANY wonders - even a sign of an Apostle (2nd Cor.12.12)

Satan can make any unbeliever look like a miracle worker, just by telling the indwelling demon who is causing the sickness, etc to leave.  And, voila!

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

6. To cast out demons and do many wonders needs POWER. Jesus cast out demons with the finger of God - not by Himself. To get the power to do this one needs the Holy Spirit. To get the Holy Spirit one needs to be baptized (Act.2:38, Chapter 19).

Satan has power.  He created a strong enough wind to completely destroy a large house where all of Job's children were eating.  

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

7. The accusation of the Lord is not that the works were iniquitous. It was that they had not done the will of the Father when doing these works. The works themselves were good. The men were loose cannons.

Again, Jesus told them He NEVER knew them.  He could NOT say that to anyone who had believed in Him for salvation.

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

8. To have access to the Kingdom one must be born again (Jn.3:3-5). Our Lord did not deny their claim. they were refused because of WORKS.

They were not born again.  Again, just look at their appeal for ENTERING the kingdom.  Based on works, not faith.  There is NO mention of faith among them.  They were never saved.

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

It seems to me that these were born-again, baptized believers who possessed the power of the Holy Spirit, but who had acted without orders. The cause is plain. the Greek word for "knew" means "intimate knowledge" like in Matthew 1:25.

In every case the Kingdom is gained, or attained to, by WORKS.

Those who believe in a works based salvation believe a "different gospel" according to Paul in Galatians 1.  

I believe Eph 2:8,9. We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH, and not of ourselves (our own works, effort), not of works, lest any many boast.  And the crowd in Matt 7:21-23 were boasting.

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

It is FAITH that puts sins away, cause the rebirth, causes one to partake of the divine life, makes one the son of God and makes one heir to the promises. It is the RIGHTEOUS that gains the Kingdom (1st Cor.6:9-10, Gal.5:21, Eph.5:5 etc.). 

The righteousness that gains the Kingdom is the IMPUTED OR CREDITED righteousness of Christ when a person believes in the Messiah for salvation.

Gen 15:6  "Abraham believed God and it was counted (inputed/credited) to him AS righteousness.

In Matt 5:20 Jesus said this:  For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

This is what He was talking about.  The Pharisees and scribes were VERY self righteous and moral.  But they didn't have God's imputed righteousness.  That's what is needed to enter the kingdom.

It seems you think that works is the righteousness that gets one into the kingdom.  It doesn't.

btw, the Bible is clear about who will be condemned, meaning never enter the kingdom but will go to the LOF.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 -  and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

The words "have not believed" means "have NEVER believed".  That is what that crowd never did;  believe in the Messiah for salvation.

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

 

..Mathew 7:21-23 KJV 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

   *The background is that Jesus said that before the Cross and to the people who were under the Sinai Covenant.

The greatest evangelist ever, Paul, preached salvation through Jesus.  His only source was Moses and the prophets.  He preached the gospel of grace from the OT.

11 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

At that time Jesus had not die, the Gospel was not preached to no one and no one was Saved by the blood of the Slain Lamb of God.

Salvation in the OT was faith in the coming Messiah.  They looked forward to the cross, all the way back from Adam. Salvation in the NT is faith in the risen Messiah.  We look back to the cross.

11 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Jesus acknowledged the good works of the people, those people who did all those things while they were under the Sinai Covenant. 

They were condemned on the basis of having NEVER believed in the Messiah.  John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12.

[jesusandliberty]

How do we reconcile "once saved always saved" with Hebrews 10:26?

[garee]

I would offer in dying . . "the wage of sin death". Mankind flesh and blood comes to a end thier corrupted body return to dust and water the field of  clay  .  One death per person .(no reincarnation )

Believers that have been given a new incorruptible spirit will rise on the last day. All die not receiving thier new body as sons of God we are not what we will be. . as anew creation called  the wife or bride of Christ the church .

She the new creature  the church is revealed in a parable in Revelation 12 Its the end of time the view in the new heavens and earth.  

Revelation 12 King James Version And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

They are the same believers below that cast their crowns of victory taking away the thorn crown  of death    

Revelation 4:9-11 King James Version And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

In effect Christ working in the Son of man has sat the Judgment seat declare guilt and sufferer with the help of the father. . 

In that way all receive the same one reward the crown of eternal life. Some teach we earn our rewards as if the spiritual gifts given that work in those yoked with Christ was of their own  (false pride) 

God makes mankind different giving gifts to show his hand working inside those yoked with His Love .What do we have that has not been freely given empowered by the Spirit of truth our Father in heaven? ?  

The better thing that accompanies salvation a reminder Christ the victor of our new faith will not forget the good work as a labor of our loved. .  yoked with him. He wore the crown of thorns at the judgement seat. . . we have a comforting crown as evidence .

 Hebrews 4: 8-10 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

 Towards his name . . . . the crown of life, 

[farouk]

2 hours ago, jesusandliberty said:

How do we reconcile "once saved always saved" with Hebrews 10:26?

@jesusandliberty Ppl who continue to live (and eventually die) practising habitual sin show that they were never true believers in the first place, whatever they might have once professed. Philippians 1.6 says: "He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it unto the day of Jesus Christ".

[Dennis1209]

3 hours ago, jesusandliberty said:

How do we reconcile "once saved always saved" with Hebrews 10:26?

The intentional moral failure in view here is neither wrongdoing in general nor a particular serious sin such as murder, adultery, or stealing. Instead it is contextually described as departing from association with those who make up the community of the Messiah. This abandonment is motivated by the refusal to have faith in Jesus as Messiah by someone who had never genuinely come to know Him. For one who persists in spurning the Messiah’s sacrifice, there no longer remains a sacrifice for his sins because of his refusal to avail himself of the benefits of Jesus’ sacrifice. The Levitical priesthood cannot, and the heavenly high priest will not, make an offering to atone for this willful sin. But instead what awaits those who turn away from Christ is awful divine judgment and … fire that will consume them (10:27).^[1]

 

---

^[1] Sauer, Ronald. “Hebrews.” The Moody Bible Commentary. Ed. Michael A. Rydelnik and Michael Vanlaningham. Chicago, IL: Moody Publishers, 2014. 1940. Print.

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, jesusandliberty said:

How do we reconcile "once saved always saved" with Hebrews 10:26?

Hebrews 10:26. 

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left.

   *First of all we should do something to give this saying to the Hebrew's writer". Who said that to people who all their lives were subjected to the tenants of the Law in the Covenant of Sinai. Subjected to fear...doing things out of the fear of the punishment prescribed in the Law. The punishment was made known to them because it was prescribed in the Law. 

In the Law not all sins were forgiven..repentance was not available to all sins. There were unforgivable sins and sins that were forgivable.  

Not keeping the Passover the person was out for the year..he cannot participate in the celebrations of their religious Calendar. 

It was the sin of adultery...the guilty person was cut off from the congregation of the people for life and he couldn't partake in the celebrations of their religious Calendar which means he was in his sins his entire life. 

 

**AND THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE FROM PETER  the disciple of Jesus Christ upon whom the Lord build his church.

AND FROM JESUS who said that ALL SINS ARE FORGIVEN all the time without any limits...only the blaspheme against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. 

Which does not include faith in Jesus Christ...A person who has blaspheme the Holy Spirit can believe in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of his Sins...but he cannot be part of the ministry of the Holy Spirit...but that does not mean that he is forbidden to speak about Jesus Christ and preach the Gospel. There is not prohibition in that matter...this is why that Hebrews statement in 10:26 it has to be examined with the saying of Jesus and the inspired teachings of his disciples. 

One of the foundation of the Gospel is the never ending call to repentance. Never withholding repentance towards anyone. 

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 

In studying the statements of Jesus Christ regarding this matter and the teachings of the disciples we should come in the Knowledge that the  statement in question in Hebrews 10:26 it should not be followed.  And because also Peter did not follow it and preached against it and so was Paul...I would tell an unbeliever that Jesus is waiting for your repentance no matter what you have said against him even against the Holy Spirit...in fact Jesus Christ continously is calling you to repentance and even till your last breath he will accept your repentance of faith in him.

In this example the person who has refuse to believe in Jesus Christ it can be an individual with a very careful way of living even careful not to sin against any one and practice loving your neighbor without prejudice to anyone and being a charitable person without prejudice to anyone. 

It does not have to be a person living a reckless life...the point is that no matter what is his own personal standing in these matters that he has refused to believe in Jesus Christ and he is called to repent and believe. 

Repentance is also towards to someone to repent from his sin and because the call to repentance is to be made in the name of Jesus Christ the person who is called to repent from his sin he must be a believer in Jesus Christ. 

The call is made to believers to repent from their sins..a very general call to all believers that which also applies to the one who makes the call for repentance of sins. 

The point is no to worry about that statement in Hebrews but we can learn something from it and learn that it can never happen..

As a believer not to worry because we are accepted by the Heavenly Father FIRST OF ALL because we are in his righteousness, that's why no one can have the Heavenly Father unless he is in Jesus Christ righteousness whose righteousness is the same as the righteousness of the Heavenly Father without any sin and any disobedience towards the Heavenly Father.  

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[FreeGrace]

5 hours ago, jesusandliberty said:

How do we reconcile "once saved always saved" with Hebrews 10:26?

Heb 10:26 - If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

Previous in context, the writer wrote this:

17 Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”

18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary. 

Those who deliberately sin have no sacrifice to offer because of v.18;  no sacrifice for sin is necessary.

And then we have the next verse:

v.27 - but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

This verse speaks of God's discipline with His Children who deliberately sin.  It is incorrect to assume that every time "fire" is mentioned it refers to hell.  Fire refers to God's judgment on sin.  And sinning believers will be disciplined.  

To "consume" here refers to physical death, which is the ultimate discipline that God renders to rebellious children.

The principle is noted in 1 Cor 11:30; weakness, sickness and death.  Notice the progression.  Doesn't sound like much fun.

Regarding the incestuous man in 1 Cor 5, Paul had turned him over to Satan "for the destruction of the flesh" (v.5).  This is physical death by the hand of Satan.  Again, doesn't sound like much fun.  

 

How do you reconcile the idea of loss of salvation with what Jesus said in John 10:28 - "I given them (believers) eternal life (Jn 5:24) and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH".  

What Jesus said refutes any and all claims that salvation can be lost.