Our default is the spirit (not the flesh)!

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

8 hours ago, Neighbor said:

I suspect the default is not to be found in newness; but instead in the fallen state of being one was first born into.

The old man of the dead flesh is not and cannot be the default for the ones that have been born again thru Jesus Christ... but it IS for those following dead men's religious social clubs (that's all many churches are in these end time of the great falling away).

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might KNOW You the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent

*”KNOW” is to: become one with, to be in agreement with, perceive, have knowledge of, be sure
of, understand.  (includes having the Father’s knowledge, the Mind of Christ - 1 Corinthians 2:16)

Amos 3:3
Can two walk together, except they be agreed?  (No, they don’t and they won’t due to disagreement... we are either living in agreement with the Lord, or in opposition to the Lord)

2 Corinthians 6:16,17
And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God; as God has said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people....Therefore come out from among them, and be separate, says the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. (in the OT see: Exodus 29:45-46,  Ezekiel 37:27)

The Father's purpose for creating mankind was / is to be with us, and share Himself with us!  
(see: 2 Corinthians 6:16,17, Ezekiel 37:27, Leviticus 26:12, Zechariah 2:10-11, Psalms 68:17-18, Isaiah 12:6, Psalm 46:4-7, Revelations 21:3, Luke 1:68, John 1:10-14, Ephesians 2:7)

Romans 12:1,2 (see James 4:4 - whosoever will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God – WARNING!)
I declare to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that YOU present your body a living sacrifice, Holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service....and be not conformed to this world (see James 4:4): but be transformed by the renewing of your mind (understanding, vision), that you may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

1 Corinthians 6:19, 20
Your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which you have of God, and you are not your own....for you are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Peter 1:13-16
Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ… As obedient children, not fashioning (agreeing with) yourself according to the former lusts in your ignorance… But as He which has called you is holy, so be yourself holy in all manner of lifestyle… Because it is written, Be holy; for I am holy.

2 Corinthians 5:17-21
If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; L00K, all things are become new.
And all things are of God, Who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To know, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be reconciled to God.
For He has made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we MIGHT be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Romans 8:11-15
If the Spirit of Him that raised Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken (make ALIVE) your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwells in you.
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
For if you live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify (put to death) the deeds of the body, you shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (see Romans 8:6)
For you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but you have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. (Daddy God, my Daddy, my Father.. love Him enough to live FOR HIM, not self).

2 Peter 1:3,4
According as His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these you MIGHT be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (fleshly, worldly desires)

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, Stan Murff said:

What do you make of these verses?
 

James 5:19,20
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

 

Let him know, that he which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

*By addressing this to “brethren” we know this is speaking to believers who turned from the truth and if they are converted back to the truth, the soul of the person that had fallen away is being saved from spiritual death which is separation from God. 

Colossians 1:21-23
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

 

In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

 

IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven.

*A condition is given here to be righteous before the Lord which is IF we continue in the faith.

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.

Jude 1:5,6
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

 

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

 

*If once saved always saved was true, then the Lord would not be speaking thru Jude to put us in remembrance about what happened to those that quit believing (turned their backs on the Lord to live in opposition to Him which is to live in sin).

*If angels having been created perfect turn away from the Lord and be separated from Him forever, we would experience the same.  Thankfully, the Lord has provided a way for man to confess and forsake sin in order to receive mercy (see Proverbs 28:13), but if we continue in our sin we will not have mercy due having turned away from the Lord

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

*This is speaking of those that were once in the faith having become born again believers and later turned away from the Lord. 

Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins

*If we knowing and willing continue in sin, Jesus’ sacrifice on the Cross is no longer applicable and there will be no new sacrifice for sin forthcoming other than what Jesus has already done at the Cross.  One must cease from sin for the work of Christ to be applicable to them.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

 

Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

 

Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

*One must cease from sin for the work of Christ to be applicable to them.

1 Corinthians 6:9,10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

 

 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 1:28-32
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Ezekiel 18:26,27
When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and dies in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

 

Again, when the wicked man turns away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Ezekiel 18:20 (see Romans 8:13)
The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20-24
 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

 

All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

 

Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

 

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Ezekiel 33:13

 

When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it

Matthew 10:32,33
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

 

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 6:14,15
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

 

But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

 

John 15:1,2
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

John 15:5
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

*This indicates that these folks were born again and they had "fallen from grace" because they turn away from trusting in Jesus for their salvation.

 

 

I asked before that this thread not be derailed with the OSAS topic. I suggest you start another thread with all that you posted here, and who knows, maybe I'll get into it with you on there, but please respect my (now repeated) request, okay brother? 

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

OK, unsubscribing.

Not matter the topic, any discussion related to being saved and walking with the Lord is related to whether OSAS is actually something God's Word teachers or not so it's always going to come up.

[steve morrow]

THE  COMFORTER

 

PSALM 119:76  let I pray thy merciful kindness --be for my comfort-- according to thy word  ---  unto thy servant 

2 THESSALONIANS 2:16  now our LORD  JESUS  CHRIST  himself and  GOD  even our  FATHER  which hath loved us and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace 

--2:17-- comfort your hearts -- and establish you in every good word and work

2 CORINTHIANS 1:3  blessed be  GOD  even  THE  FATHER of our  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST  THE  FATHER  of mercies  ---  and the  GOD  of all comfort ---

--1:4--  who comforteth us in all our tribulation --- that we may be able to --- comfort them which are in any trouble  ---  by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of  GOD  ---

 

ROMANS 15:4  for whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning that we through  ---  patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope ---

 

JOHN 14:26  but the comforter which is the holy spirit whom  THE  FATHER  will send in  MY  name  --HE--  shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance whatsoever I have said unto you 

 

JOHN 14:18  I  WILL  NOT  LEAVE  YOU  COMFORTLESS  I  WILL  COME  TO  YOU 

 

ACTS 22:7  and I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying unto me saul saul why persecutest thou  ME  

--22:8 -- and I answered --- who art thou  LORD  ---  and  HE  said unto me  ---  I  AM  JESUS  OF  NAZARETH  WHOM  THOU  PERSECUTEST ---

--22:9-- and they that were with me saw indeed the light and were afraid but they heard not the voice of  HIM  that spake to me

--22:10-- and I said what shall I do  LORD  and  THE  LORD  said unto me arise and go into damascus and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do 

--22:11--  and when I could not see for the glory of that light being led by the hand of them that were with me I came into damascus 

--22:12-- and one ananias a devout man according to the law having a good report of all the jews which dwelt there 

--22:13--  came unto me and stood and said unto me brother saul receive thy sight and the same hour I looked up upon him

 

--22:14--  and he said  THE  GOD  of our fathers hath chosen thee that thou shouldest know  HIS  will and see that just one and shouldest hear the voice of  HIS  mouth

--22:15--  for thou shalt be  HIS  witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard --

 

ISAIAH 43:11  I  EVEN  I  AM  THE  LORD  AND  ---BESIDE  ME  THERE  IS  NO  SAVIOUR ---

ISAIAH 43:21  tell ye and bring them near yea let them take counsel together who hath declared this from ancient time ---who hath told it from that time--- HAVE  NOT  I  THE  LORD  ---  AND  THERE  IS  NO  GOD  ELSE  BESIDE  BE   ---  A  JUST  GOD  AND  A  SAVIOUR  ---  THERE  IS  NONE  BESIDE  ME  ---

--43:12-- LOOK  UNTO  ME  AND  BE  YOU  SAVED  ALL  THE  ENDS  OF  THE  EARTH  FOR  I  AM  GOD  THERE  IS  NONE  ELSE

 

PSALM 119:50  this is my comfort in my affliction for thy word hath quickened me 

 

ISAIAH 51:12  I  EVEN  I  AM  --HE--  THAT  COMFORTETH  YOU  ---  WHO  ART  THOU  THAT  THOU  SHOULDEST  BE  AFRAID  OF  A  MAN  THAT  SHALL  DIE  ---  AND  OF  THE  SON  OF  MAN  WHICH  SHALL  BE  MADE  AS  GRASS  ---

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST 

[Neighbor]

On 9/3/2023 at 5:13 PM, Vine Abider said:

We've been going through Romans since late spring and this morning a brother shared a message about the first part of Romans 8.  But it was some of the saints sharing later in the meeting, right after the main message, that really drove home a few wonderful points.

One brother shared that a key point in chapter 8 was that our default is actually not the flesh, but the spirit.  He cited 8:9 which says, "However, you are not in the flesh but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you." He conveyed about how in Romans 7 & 8 we have these laws going on (God's law, law of sin & death, law of the Spirit of life) and that the law of sin operating through the flesh is like gravity - gravity always functions. But there is a higher law than gravity - the law of aerodynamics. When we get in an airplane and the law of aerodynamics is applied to it, then the law of gravity is overcome and we soar.  This is the same with the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus!  

I usually think of us believers as just normally being in the flesh, and therefore we then have to work something up to get into the spirit/Spirit. But Romans chapter 6 & 7 tell us, in various ways, that the old relationship with the law and the flesh is gone for regenerated believers!  In fact, pretty much every book in the New Testament tells us that the old relationship with the law, and the old man under the law, is dead, Dead DEAD in Christ!  (How many verses tell us this* throughout the New Testament!?!?)

Romans 8:12 says we are not under obligation to the flesh, and this is the very same message developed in chapters 6 & 7 too!  For instance, the married woman in chapter 7 is free from the old marriage, because her former legal husband died, in order that she could be married to another - CHRIST!  Romans 6:3 says, "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?" Then verse 11, "Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus."  Over & over it's telling us this very thing: We died to the old (law, flesh, etc.) and are now married to Christ - and now our default reality is that we're in Christ and in spirit!

In our experience, however, we may still believe the lie that we're not in the new Spirit Man (even though so, so many verses tell us that*) and our feeler may just feel old and condemned and not much like a buoyant believer at all - yada yada yada . . . but scripture tells us it isn't true of us!  So what are we to do practically speaking? Romans 8:6 addresses this: "The mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace."  We have to exercise our will to choose to go with what the Word says about us and to identify with that reality.  And also speak this truth - to ourselves, to God, to each other, and to the enemy!  

The reality is, our default position and identity is in Christ!   All else is a lie.   What freedom - may our minds be renewed to see this and walk in this reality ongoing!  

 

* This was something of a "duh" moment this morning for me, because I've been hearing all these verses (about being buried with Christ so we could walk in newness of life) for several decades . . . yet this morning, some dots got connected!

(BTW: in the gravity/airplane analogy, this means regenerated believers are not sitting on the tarmac trying to get into the plane --> we're already seated in the plane cruising at 30,000 feet)

Hi, Quoting to the opening post in hope of  the thread refocusing on the proposition that a default position exists and it is that Christians are in the spirit and not in  the flesh.

[Neighbor]

2 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Hi, Quoting to the opening post in hope of  the thread refocusing on the proposition that a default position exists and it is that Christians are in the spirit and not in  the flesh.

While I really enjoy the thought of the natural default status of Christians being "in the spirit"  I wonder about the definitions that  perhaps need be applied. I especially wonder about the idea of justification, sanctification, and progressive sanctification as elements of one's natural position.

Seems to me that  the natural or default is always in the flesh or in sin against God. That it is totally by the grace of God through the sacrifice by Yeshua that any are turned about from a natural in the flesh position to  a new position of being of the spirit or in the spirit.  That status is to be counted as holy regardless of one's sin,  because of the sacrifice of Yeshua made to cover  and to take on the consequence  of one's sin.  Where as progressively one is slowly sanctified , actually becoming  holy or without sin. 

A default position of a Christian is perhaps by God alone, as seen by God  or not seen,  because of the covering by the shed blood of Jesus. It seems all do still wander from  that position, that sanctification., yet are fully justified as  holy by God's doing alone.

Rather than a default position I think there is a tenuous process or strain between flesh and spirit; BUT that God sees  Christians as holy and acceptable regardless, not because of any person's acts, but because of the sacrifice made by Jesus alone.

That Jesus loses not a one given him by his father doesn't seem to me to make me more of the spirit  nor less. It is a gift one purchased at great price and given to many each totally without merit.

The default- Perhaps it is all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

 

[Neighbor]

My hope lives not because I am not a sinner, but because I am a sinner for whom Christ died; my trust is not that I am holy, but that being unholy, HE is my righteousness. My faith rests not upon what I am or shall be or feel or know, but in what Christ is, in what He has done, and in what He is now doing for me. Hallelujah!

Charles Spurgeon

That said by Spurgeon for me to consider even today, I find that  my default position is-I'm saved from God's just wrath by Grace of God alone.

[Vine Abider]

13 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

My hope lives not because I am not a sinner, but because I am a sinner for whom Christ died; my trust is not that I am holy, but that being unholy, HE is my righteousness. My faith rests not upon what I am or shall be or feel or know, but in what Christ is, in what He has done, and in what He is now doing for me. Hallelujah!

Charles Spurgeon

That said by Spurgeon for me to consider even today, I find that  my default position is-I'm saved from God's just wrath by Grace of God alone.

Thanks bro for helping get this topic back on track! I intend to respond more fully later - I'm traveling and my fingers take much more effort replying via the phone. You do make some very good points... 

[Vine Abider]

On 9/10/2023 at 8:38 PM, Stan Murff said:

OK, unsubscribing.

Not matter the topic, any discussion related to being saved and walking with the Lord is related to whether OSAS is actually something God's Word teachers or not so it's always going to come up.

It's what I'd classify as an important topic and I appreciate you and @SpiritSong respecting the request to not derail this thread's topic with that subject's usually passionate & highly involved responses. (I've actually been considering how we might set a thread up with framework to have an effective discussion about OSAS, perhaps to limiting everone in presenting overly long mini-epistles as their response.) 

[SpiritSong]

On 9/11/2023 at 12:43 AM, Vine Abider said:

I asked before that this thread not be derailed with the OSAS topic. I suggest you start another thread with all that you posted here, and who knows, maybe I'll get into it with you on there, but please respect my (now repeated) request, okay brother? 

Apologies for my part!

Actually I thought I was addressing what was relevant to the OP with regards to new wine and new wineskins (it's in the response I posted but you don't have to reread if you don't want)

What is your perspective on the topic? These are things I have been thinking about of late, as I press on in faith 👍