Dual Topic: Heaven - Satan

[Dennis1209]

The following is a flow-over thread from another thread and a topic that became interrelated and started to get discussed. The first topic relates to whether heaven will come to Earth, whether Heaven and the Kingdom of God are synonymous, whether the 3^rd heaven is polluted by sin, and precisely what, Who, and where constitutes heaven(s).

The second topic: Has Satan been cast out and permanently banned from the third heaven yet? Or does Satan still have access to God?

But first, before I share my thoughts, I would like to know if there is any interest so I do not waste anyone’s time or start an argument.

Secondly, your initial researched thoughts addressing the above would be an excellent place to begin, supported with scripture.

[Marilyn C]

 

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

The following is a flow-over thread from another thread and a topic that became interrelated and started to get discussed. The first topic relates to whether heaven will come to Earth, whether Heaven and the Kingdom of God are synonymous, whether the 3^rd heaven is polluted by sin, and precisely what, Who, and where constitutes heaven(s).

The second topic: Has Satan been cast out and permanently banned from the third heaven yet? Or does Satan still have access to God?

But first, before I share my thoughts, I would like to know if there is any interest so I do not waste anyone’s time or start an argument.

Secondly, your initial researched thoughts addressing the above would be an excellent place to begin, supported with scripture.

Hi Dennis,

Yes, I`m interested in this discussion which is quite relevant to where we believe we will go and have our eternal inheritance. Also, as these details lead to the preeminence of Christ, they are very worthwhile topics.

First Topic.

We know from God`s word that there are three `realms` of heaven -

1.     The atmosphere over the earth where the birds fly and rain etc. (James 5: 18)

2.     The middle heavens of the universe, planets, sun etc. (Gen. 1: 16 & 17)

3.     The third heaven, the angels, etc (2 Cor. 12: 2)

The Kingdom (rulership) of God includes all realms as God made them all and never gave them away. (Col. 1: 16) He rules overall. Since sin entered (Lucifer and later man) God has been working to put down all rebellion in each realm in His timing.

The third heaven is not polluted as Lucifer was cast out. However, the position of rulership there, (Lucifer was the King priest) has not yet been fulfilled. (Ez. 28: 16)

Lucifer, now named Satan, (accuser) is now in the Universal realm, (principalities and powers rulership position.  Eph. 2: 2   6: 12) and that is certainly polluted. (Job 15: 15)

And the earth and its atmosphere are polluted and the rulership on the earth is against God and will be dealt with. (Ps. 2: 1 – 5)

 

Second Topic.

When Satan came before God he certainly did not enter the throne room. Coming before God is a term that means Satan had to stop and be accountable to God. Remember God speaks to everyone wherever they are. We do not have to fly to heaven to talk to God.

 

regards, Marilyn.

 

 

[Vine Abider]

4 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

The following is a flow-over thread from another thread and a topic that became interrelated and started to get discussed. The first topic relates to whether heaven will come to Earth, whether Heaven and the Kingdom of God are synonymous, whether the 3^rd heaven is polluted by sin, and precisely what, Who, and where constitutes heaven(s).

The second topic: Has Satan been cast out and permanently banned from the third heaven yet? Or does Satan still have access to God?

But first, before I share my thoughts, I would like to know if there is any interest so I do not waste anyone’s time or start an argument.

Secondly, your initial researched thoughts addressing the above would be an excellent place to begin, supported with scripture.

Well I think I found this thread on my own after all . . . 

Getting ready for supper, but I'll just respond to one thing.  I think according to Revelation 12 we have to say Satan still has access to heaven as it says he accuses the saints before God there day & night.  He is cast down to the earth as a result of the man-child's appearance, and then creates havoc on the earth as he knows his time is short.  This, to me, is the start of the end of the age tribulation.

[Dennis1209]

12 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Well I think I found this thread on my own after all . . . 

Getting ready for supper, but I'll just respond to one thing.  I think according to Revelation 12 we have to say Satan still has access to heaven as it says he accuses the saints before God there day & night.  He is cast down to the earth as a result of the man-child's appearance, and then creates havoc on the earth as he knows his time is short.  This, to me, is the start of the end of the age tribulation.

Yes, those are some of the things I wanted to compare notes and thoughts on. But I do not have the time right now. It appears Satan and his third of the heavenly host have once previously been cast out of Heaven, and can be historically date stamped, but still have physical access to God. Another permanent casting out in the Book of Revelation, now knowing his time is short. 

If all this is recorded in the Bible, it must be important for us to know.

Forwarded this to @Marilyn C

[Neighbor]

Hi, Does not the challenge by God to Satan's accusation of Job indicate that he was/is able appear along with other created beings before God, even if he may do so without invitation or permission? Job 1: 6-12

 

[Justin Adams]

Read job carefully. HaSatan ( the definite article) indicated that he is 'an adversary' and NOT the adversary that later gets termed as THE accuser.

It is a fine and important linquistic twist.

[Dennis1209]

Correct or not, I think the temples here on Earth are patterns of the heavenly temple, which have the courts, holy of holies, etc. So much detail, instruction, and measurement are provided on how they will be built, furnished, and utilized.

Revelation 16:17 (KJV) And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. [emphasis mine]

Not to be confused with the third heaven and our eternal abode: Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Like the Earth, cosmos, and everything in it, is the 3^rd heaven a part of creation? Was it created as the abode of God and the heavenly host?

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. [emphasis mine]

Again, is the universe and third heaven part of the whole creation? I propose, most likely.

⁶ And it came to pass on a day, that, behold, the angels of God came to stand before the Lord, and the devil came with them. ⁷ And the Lord said to the devil, Whence art thou come? And the devil answered the Lord, and said, I am come from compassing the Earth, and walking up and down in the world.^[1]

NOTE: There is a controversy among scholars about whether this is the former Lucifer, using the prefix ha (the Satan). A job description of an accuser or adversary, nonetheless.

⁴⁴ Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.^[2]

The devil lied to Jesus’s face on Earth, intentionally misquoting scripture, as he did with Eve. He lies and accuses us before God in heaven. Satan is sin incarnate; he lies and accuses the brethren (sins) in heaven before God Almighty. Can we say sin has even contaminated heaven, a part of creation?

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

It is too lengthy to detail, but the morning stars and all the sons of God are different. The fall of Satan and those who decided to follow him had not yet occurred. There is no mention of the angels or sons of God as singing since that time.

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the Earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

I believe this to be when Satan and one-third of the heavenly host were cast out of heaven. The Dragon, Satan, the woman Israel, Satan, through Herod, tried to murder the baby Jesus when Jesus was delivered.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the Earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. [emphasis mine]

The brethren are self-explanatory. To this day, Satan still has access to heaven and presents himself before the Lord to accuse us. I submit the devil and his minions do not present themselves on Earth or the 2^nd heaven, but where God physically is in heaven.

How did one man’s sin escape planet Earth and contaminate all creation? If Satan, sin himself, is facing God in heaven, lying, deceiving, and accusing, does that not also contaminate heaven?

So, what and where is heaven? As mentioned, it is clear our eternal home will not be in the 3^rd heaven where the Father resides and where His throne is.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

To me, heaven is where Jesus physically is and rules and reigns, where there is no need for solar or artificial light because His glory shines so brightly. We may spend about seven years in heaven during the Tribulation, but the 3^rd heaven will not be our eternal home.

As always, this is my current view and understanding, which may be incorrect.

Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

Verse 17 explains that people must not shy away from interaction with their peers since it is an education in itself. The “sharpening” can occur in any area in which people are engaged, be it business, intellectual, or physical competition.^[3]

 

---

^[1] Brenton, Lancelot Charles Lee. The Septuagint Version of the Old Testament: English Translation. London: Samuel Bagster and Sons, 1870. Print.

^[2] The Holy Bible: King James Version. Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009. Print.

^[3] Garrett, Duane A. Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs. Vol. 14. Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1993. Print. The New American Commentary.

[Dennis1209]

7 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Read job carefully. HaSatan ( the definite article) indicated that he is 'an adversary' and NOT the adversary that later gets termed as THE accuser.

It is a fine and important linquistic twist.

I briefly touched on that in my latest post above. I could have detailed your point as the late Dr. Heiser did, but too much ink would have made my long post even longer. 

[Vine Abider]

51 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

How did one man’s sin escape planet Earth and contaminate all creation? If Satan, sin himself, is facing God in heaven, lying, deceiving, and accusing, does that not also contaminate heaven?

So, what and where is heaven? As mentioned, it is clear our eternal home will not be in the 3^rd heaven where the Father resides and where His throne is.

We're delving into some real mysteries here, and I don't know how much help I'll be on this. (if you tag AdHoc on this subject, I'd guess he'd have some pretty involved answers)

You bring up an interesting thing regarding Satan bringing sin into the 3rd heaven and God's presence, which I've also wondered about.  However, I don't have any good answer to this.  I suspect there's a longer game being played here that we don't see clearly . . .

I don't think man's sin contaminated the whole universe, just the earth.  The earth was given to man in Genesis 1:26 to have dominion over, so that is the realm I think man's sin influenced. Satan appears to have been around a long time, and with my thought that the universes was here before Genesis 1:2, I think Satan contaminated things long before man was created.

As far as where our eternal home is, I agree that it is on the earth.  Everything with man is centered on the earth, from what I can see in scripture, and so far, I haven't seen anything to sway me of that notion.

Where will God be?  From what I see in the last two chapters of Revelation, it seems God's intention is to dwell with man, and man is on the earth ("The earth He has given to the children of men" Psalm 115:16)

 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.  ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. 

I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. (Rev 21:2-4 & 22)

 The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. They will see his face  (Rev 22:3-4)

And I have to throw in this one from brother Paul:  You also are being built together for a habitation of God in Spirit  (Eph 2:22

[Dennis1209]

17 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

We're delving into some real mysteries here, and I don't know how much help I'll be on this. (if you tag AdHoc on this subject, I'd guess he'd have some pretty involved answers)

Excellent idea, I will tag both @AdHoc and @Marilyn C to see if they are interested in jumping into the fray.