Did the 'dead' rise before Christ did?

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

The laws shows need by what the law cannot do. Only in Christ is there salvation. Therefore the law taught people through the law that a much greater truth was needed for salvation. Well, it taught those that would listen, anyway.

And don't cherrypick. Look for all Paul's teaching on the law and it's purpose. A much clearer and truthful picture will emerge.

I got a much clearer view by learning the law itself.  Why would you, who hold Paul suspect, turn around and promote what Paul said?   And I'M the one 'cherry picking'?

[Buzzard3]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

All I need to know?  You must be kidding.

With respect to what happens to the dead before the resurrection ... yes, that's all you need to know.

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

 

.  Irrelevant details? 

Seriously.  So if I already know that I can walk away and you will be taking on the responsibility not only for why I walked away from what God has put in my heart to do but doing all I won't be doing?  

Not sure how simple you are going to find that.  But let's start here and you finish answering the rest of the posts.  I check back in, in an hour and see how it is going. 

Never mind.  How about you do what you are called to do and I will do the same thing. Let's not judge another mans servant, OK?

 

Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about.  

Edited September 22, 2023 by Buzzard3

[DeighAnn]

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Dan 12:2 -  Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:24 -  and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Acts 24:15 -  and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Blue refers to the saved.  Red refers to the unsaved.  

First Dan, and I'll answer even knowing it may be too hard to follow  

DANIEL
chapter 9
1In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

chapter 10
1In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.

chapter 11
1Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him.

CHAPTER 11 ACTUALLY follows CHAPTER 10.

When you ACKNOWLEDGE THAT you can see how chapter 12 follows chapter 10, and when you do THAT

the answer as to the WHEN is found

CHAPTER 10

7And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.

8Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.

9Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.

10And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.

11And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.

12Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

13But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

14Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

15And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb.

16And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.

17For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.

18Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me,

19And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.

20Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia:

and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.

21But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth:

and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (4422. malat Definition: to slip away) (they are going to HEAR THE WORDS OF JESUS and CONVERT from the 'Jews of the synagogue of Satan)


The TIMING IS PREDICATED UPON THE NATION OF ISRAEL AT THAT TIME, NOT AT THE end of the time of the GENTILES treading Jerusalem, our future time. 

Go further and check out sleep.  How does it stack up against tohu wa bohu?

The question you might ask yourself is what happened to Daniels people when Jesus came?  

I already showed those in charge were not of those who went into the captivity but were outsiders hired or assigned.  

And what was happening, why did they have to kill Jesus? 

All those who were 'in the book', who HEARD His voice WERE ESCAPING IN DROVES, THEY were hearing His voice and converting.  If it lasted much longer there would be no one left for them to RULE over.  


2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life,




But there were those who would choose to NOT hear the good news and when the DEAD RISE, some will find they would have gone to heaven and not hell...and for them

and some to shame and everlasting contempt.



But those who did WAKE UP TO THE TRUTH....

3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

the beginning of the CHURCH or the new way in which ISRAEL would be face being resurrected from the dead.  No longer OUT FROM the PLACE OF THE DEAD, but from the dead flesh and blood body,  A SINGLE SIN no longer able to cause you to be 'buried' rather than carried.


Sound familiar?  
38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.



There is part of the Daniel one

 

 

[DeighAnn]

31 minutes ago, Buzzard3 said:

With respect to what happens to the dead before the resurrection ... yes, that's all you need to know.

You don't sound anything like MY GOD.  

[FreeGrace]

1 minute ago, DeighAnn said:

FreeGrace said: 

"Dan 12:2 -  Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:24 -  and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Acts 24:15 -  and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Blue refers to the saved.  Red refers to the unsaved."

First Dan, and I'll answer even knowing it may be too hard to follow

Do you think that condescension is helpful to your view?

1 minute ago, DeighAnn said:

DANIEL
chapter 9
1In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

There is part of the Daniel one

Not even close.  Dan 12:2 is clearly a statement about two resurrections, so no one needs all those other chapters to 'explain' them.

Maybe you don't really understand what "sleep....will awake" even means.  It is the resurrection.  There is one for the saved and one for the unsaved.

And all 3 verses indicate the same thing, and none of them require the chapters of Daniel that you just quoted.  None.

Your problem begins with Rev 20:5, which I don't recall that you've ever commented on.  That verse proves that the 2 resurrections are 1,000 years apart.

This is unambiguous. 

[Your closest friendnt]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

You don't know this. This is simply a scenario you like to believe. Jesus told the thief on the cross both he and Jesus would be in paradise, THAT DAY.

David spoke to this:

So also, He says in another Psalm: ‘You will not let Your Holy One see decay.’

Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ,

that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay.

 

" that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay." 

@Diaste 

this is a copy from the last sentence from your quote above. 

It says that David wrote about the Christ that He was not Abandoned in Hades.

David is telling that the Messiah, the Christ must die and after his death he was found in Hades...in his words and the words his people used the Christ at his death was found in Sheol. ("Hades" is a translation world and it is the place of the world's dead...and the Arhon or God of that place was the God of the dead (not just dead who had died physically but who were dead to God...) to be gathered to Hades needs to descend from the earth to the place of Hades in some place in the earth "in the underworld".

when David said "Sheol" he denotes the place of Abraham's Inheritance. The place God gave to Abraham and this is where Abraham gathered and welcomed his chosen children. In other words was spoken amongst the Israelites as the "Bossom of Abraham" or "the Paradise of Abraham", that I know, it could be other names but the place it is the same no matter what someone calls it. To go there one has to descend through the earth in the same way as when someone had to descend to Hades. As no one can descend through the earth while he is still alive in the body unless it is quick sand, but anyway he will soon die from asphyxiation. The point is no one could be found in his body in neither Hades or Sheol (the Bossom of Abraham aka the territorial place of Abraham or the Paradise of Abraham aka where the people of God were waiting in peace for the coming of the Messiah the Christ of God with the Heavenly Inheritance to come and fulfill the promise God had given to Abraham and to David. To do good to God's promise to lead them out from there and to Christ Heavenly Inheritance. 

the scriptures that you have referred to that what the say, that David and Jesus what Jesus said to the former thief on the Cross is the same thing that David foresee that the Christ at his death will descend to where Abraham and his chosen children who had died were gathered to way for the day Jesus had spoken in this way "that Abraham has seen my day and rejoice". And that what Jesus declares just before he died on the Cross that the time to be fulfilled what was promised to Abraham and what was prophesied by David is about to be fulfilled at the time when he will die. This is why he said to the former sinner who was not a sinner anymore because Jesus had forgiven his sins...this is why he told him when he dies he will find himself together with the righteous children of Abraham with Abraham. Jesus told him that you will be with me in the Paradise of Abraham because Jesus knew that he will die first and he will be the first one to go there and the forgiven thief will follow because he will die some time later on.

The Scriptures also says that Jesus Christ continue on his mission to preach the Gospel to all the rest of the world because he had died for the whole world and this was part of his mission as he had said before he died that the dead will hear his voice and those who believe will live.

Jesus was telling the people that the Heavenly Father has given to him to preach the Gospel to the dead...(including that he had to find him self amongst the dead to where they were...like the lost sheep Jesus went looking for them to where they were. 

Jesus also went to show himself to all the powers down there because everyone had to see the Christ of God the Messiah of God the one God had appointed that through him God will Judge everyone....this is why it was said at about the time before Jesus died that the Arhon of this world is about to be judged...all the powers down there had to see Jesus Christ to know that the day of their Judgement has come. AMEN.

If someone study carefully the words of David he will see that David and Abraham and John the Baptist and the people with them they had the hope and they believe that the Christ of God must die first before he comes to them there was not any other way....that the Christ of God was someone from their brethren because David said before his body began to decay he will be raised from the dead. 

The people with Abraham and David looked forward to the Christ death but at that time not the people who lived and where around Jesus who wanted Jesus Christ to be with them always. 

At that time they did not understand that also will happen that Jesus Christ will be always with them and they always with him but Jesus had to die first for that to happen because he had to include everyone from the rest of the world who would believe in him...

The disciples mission was to preach the Gospel to the living all over the world and that mission continues from Generation to Generation Jesus Christ mission was to preach the Gospel to all in the Place of the dead. 

Because his disciples will never go down there, will never descend to the place of the dead...they are alive to Jesus Christ and at the time of the death of their physical body they continued to be alive to the Heavenly Father and they will continue to be alive to Him because they will always be alive to Jesus Christ, in his name, in his Life, in his Eternal Life...

[DeighAnn]

On 9/21/2023 at 8:34 AM, FreeGrace said:

John 5:24 -  and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

John 5:24

Truly truly I say to you that the [one] the word of Me hearing AND BELIEVING the [One] having sent Me, he has life eternal and into judgment not comes but HAS PASSED out of death into life.  

How does one pass out of death?  By not going to the place of the dead.  By not waiting for Christs return.  By being raised up at the end of this 'life'. We don't fear the first death because it is just of the BODY that goes back to dust, YET we are going to heaven in the body that is raised up.  So, ARE RAISED UP IN OUR SPIRITUAL BODIES IN GLORY AND POWER AND IMMORTALITY.  

3327. metabainó ►
Strong's Concordance
metabainó: to pass over, withdraw, depart
Original Word: μεταβαίνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: metabainó
Phonetic Spelling: (met-ab-ah'-ee-no)
Definition: to pass over, withdraw, depart
Usage: I change my place (abode), leave, depart, remove, pass over.

 

2288. thanatos ►
Strong's Concordance
thanatos: death
Original Word: θάνατος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: thanatos
Phonetic Spelling: (than'-at-os)
Definition: death
Usage: death, physical or spiritual.

HELPS Word-studies
2288 thánatos (derived from 2348 /thnḗskō, "to die") – physical or spiritual death; (figuratively) separation from the life (salvation) of God forever by dying without first experiencing death to self to receive His gift of salvation.

THERE IS NO PHYSICAL DEATH, JUST A CHANGING OF BODIES

So the RESURRECTION you keep saying if for those who NEVER DIE who have become DEAD somehow AND are in the earth or whatever since no one knows,

is in fact for those who have died and ARE DEAD until Christ returns

 

[Buzzard3]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

All I need to know?  You must be kidding.  Irrelevant details? 

What more do you need to know about what happens to the dead before the resurrection and the resurrection itself, other than what I mentioned?  

Edited September 22, 2023 by Buzzard3

[DeighAnn]

On 9/21/2023 at 8:34 AM, FreeGrace said:

Acts 24:15 -  and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

again, they both rise up together.  IS ABOUT TO BE would mean THEY HAVE TO BE AT THE SAME TIME.  



The dead rise when Christ returns.  The LIVING return WITH HIM, still in their spiritual bodies having been raised up in glory power and incorruption, now in their white robes, coming to be the government and priests of CHRIST, the LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS. 

THEN the dead stand in judgment at the GWTJ
 

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

SOME OF THE DEAD will be found in the book of life by their works. Being found in the book of life THEY ARE THE RIGHTEOUS of the dead who were resurrected out from the dead when Christ returned

SOME OF THE DEAD will NOT be found in the book of life and they will go into the LOF.  
Not being found in the book of life they are the WICKED of the DEAD that were raised up out from the dead when Christ returned.  


A SINGULAR RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD BOTH THE JUST AND THE UNJUST.  

If it is AS YOU CLAIM

ONLY the 'RIGHTEOUS NEVER DIE LIVING' some how now dead

1. WHY would they need to get their names in the book of life AGAIN
2. WHY would it need to be by WORKS
3.  Why would CHRIST be ruling over them with a rod of Iron for the Lords day

4. How would the dead in hell get their names in the book of life through works?

[DeighAnn]

12 minutes ago, Buzzard3 said:

What more do you need to know about what happens to the dead before the resurrection and the resurrection itself, other than what I mentioned?  

Since I don't know what I yet don't know, how can I tell you what I yet need to know?

 I won't know until I have studied to be approved.  Are you suggesting I don't Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth?