Did the 'dead' rise before Christ did?

[FreeGrace]

49 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

FreeGrace said: 

Please explain what Jesus was teaching in John 10:28 then.  Those ARE God's words.

Do YOU CURRENTLY possess EVERYTHING EVERYONE HAS EVER GIVEN YOU?

Seems you are just trying to be difficult.  I asked a question and you come back with a silly question.  Your question is totally irrelevant.  What I don't have yet is a resurrection body.  But I will.  What I do have is eternal life.  Jesus said so.

49 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

THAT IS HOW I EXPLAIN WHAT is BEING TAUGHT.

But, I DON'T stand upon that verse ALONE.  I take the ENTIRE CONTEXT of the Bible and apply all the different lessons I HAVE received to it

No you don't.

49 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

so I don't MAKE THE MISTAKE of taking A FEW WORDS and TURNING THEM INTO DOCTRINES not taught BY GOD.

You are rejecting very specific and unambiguous verses that ARE taught by God.  Don't kid yourself.

49 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

  I am NOT INTERESTED in my own religion, but GODS TRUTH.  And when I run across a TRUTH I don't try and adjust HIS WORDS I adjust MY BELIEFS.

How can I believe this when you don't believe 1 Cor 15:23 or Rev 20:5?

49 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

  I hope this answers you question in a manner in which you don't have to ask it again.  

So far, none of what you call "answers" have answered my questions.  Most of the time you just fire back with another irrelevant question.

49 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1325: δίδωμι
You may find it somewhere in this list and say SEE HERE this man said it this way, but even that can't change WHAT WE AGREED TO DO and we must ACCEPT His words and they say we have to abide and obey etc.  

No I didn't find anything of use in your very long copy and paste of Thayer's Greek.  It seems you are unable to synthesize and concisely explain yourself, so you resort to a very long entry in Thayer's as if that explains anything.  

And I give you very unambiguous verses that need NO copy and pastes from any lexicon.  The meaning is plain from the words that Jesus used.  And you don't believe.

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The FIRST resurrection will be all the saved.  They have received the gift of eternal life by means of faith.  I don't know what you mean by "gift of life".  That could simply refer to everyone who has been born alive.  Try to be more specific in your posts.  Even the spiritually dead did receive the "gift of life".

Yes, and those of the FIRST resurrection, NOT OF TIME but of salvation HAVING received the gift of eternal life by ways of faith

have been FOLLOWING HIM to go be where He is ever since He ascended.  Why?  Because at the common death, the death of the flesh and blood body, they rise.

  And WITH WHAT BODY DO THEY RISE?  

But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

if GOD is giving body A BARE GRAIN THIS BODY PRODUCES, the WHAT BODY ARE YOU SAYING RISES UP FROM THE CORRUPTION FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NEVER DIED BUT CONTINUED ON LIVING IN THEIR SPIRITUAL BODY? 

39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

[FreeGrace]

50 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

FreeGrace said: 

What kind of "conclusion" is this?  It seems you are trying to argue with Jesus Himself.  So it is YOUR green comment that is ridiculous.  Do you believe what Jesus SAID in that verse or not?  You are anything but clear in your comments.

The common death the death of the first body the death we are not to fear the as in Adam all die death THAT is the ONLY DEATH and what happens at the sowing/dissolving/death of this body?

Please edit this non-sensical word salad.  Maybe reading it out loud to see how it sounds to your ears.

50 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Thank you for another unhelpful group of verses.

50 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Why is GOD giving a BODY to a BARE GRAIN if as you say THIS BODY will be raised up?

I never said God gives a body to a bare grain.  That isn't even a sensical statement.  But yes, God did say our physical bodies will be raised up.  That is the resurrection that occurs at the Second Advent.

50 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Once again, a passage of verses without any comment.  I'll wait for some kind of comment from you as to what all this means to you and THEN I'll comment on your comment.

I'm betting our understandings of this passage aren't even close.

[Your closest friendnt]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes. but there is more info on how and when and the nature that must be considered.

Yes. But not perish under what concept? You assume it's the grave. Scripture tells us it's never perish in the lake of fire. 

 

You need to contribute in this matter something more substantial besides moods. Moods cannot be discussed, "the yes this it is so" but what about this. that is not sufficient. It is sufficient to confusion.

To say yes and then to say but, it shows instability, it shows that you are walking two different paths at the same time.  

We are in John 11:26 and we have recorded there the words of Jesus. And Jesus asks: Do you believe this?  

You said "yes". Did you really say yes with a yes to yes? 

   John 11:26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” 

this is what we are focusing on, the subject of the discussion.  

please comment on the same matter and then if you want to discuss something else, let it be know. 

The words Jesus use is to live believing in him and "never die".

We understand that he was not speaking about the physical death of the body, because we all know that we die the physical death, and we do not need anyone to tell us that...so what is the point you want to discuss? 

I am trying to speak without prejudice to anyone.  

What Jesus said it applies to whoever leaves believing in him...that he will never die. He will always be alive in him. 

living believing in Him it is living in Him in his Life... Jesus is ahead of their time to after his death on the Cross after his Atonement for the forgiveness of our sins after shedding the blood of the New Covenant.  

the believer in him for the forgiveness of his sins will be in the forgiveness of his sins and he will die having forgiveness of his sins as an act of God. The believer will be alive always to God.

that makes clear that Jesus has considered a lot of things all the relevant situations and he said: that the believer in him never dies. Jesus also considered all the situations where the people under the Sinai Covenant died to God..

When they did not follow their religious Calendar, and were not allowed to participate in the YEARLY ATONEMENT, yearly life with their Lord God (not with the Heavenly Father).

And if they sin during that year they had to offer their individual sacrifice to make Atonement for their sin (because with their sin were dead to God and to the community of those who were alive to God in the yearly Atonement.  

Jesus said the believer in him never dies....the obedient Israelites who practice the yearly religious Calendar and the yearly Atonement the died at the end of the religious year or if they sin or when the Sinai Covenant is put away and the Atonement sacrifices put away the Israelites will find them selves dead in their sins. 

Jesus Christ said the living believer will never find himself dead in his sins...and when he physicaphysically dies, he always dies alive to God...always dies having his sins forgiven...He never dies in his sins, he dies alive to God because he died believing in Jesus Christ.  

Edited September 23, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[FreeGrace]

29 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

FreeGrace said: 

 So what's your problem?

DON'T have one but you on the other hand, I'm thinking might just have a really bad case of TUNNEL VISION.

There was a lot more in my post than just that question.  Why can't you at least include the context for that question?

29 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

  You see THE 'PHYSICAL DEATH" of first body, the flesh and blood body AS BEING the end of PHYSICAL LIFE.

Only because it is.  Sorry if reality isn't your "thing".  But it is my thing.  When physical life ends, that's when soul and body part company.  James 2:26 nailed it.

29 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

BECAUSE you can't seem to understand LIFE goes on in the PHYSICAL SPIRITUAL BODY IN THE SPIRITUAL REALM.

Go back to 1 Cor 15 and keep studying until you finally realize that the "spiritual body" is the resurrection body.  If you can't find it, ask and I'll give you the exact verse #.

29 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

  No matter HOW the SPIRITUAL REALM is presented to you AS A PHYSICAL REALITY, you can't seem to CONTINUE ON after the first death.

Paul taught that believers WILL "continue on" after physical death.  Study 2 Cor 5:6-8 until it sinks in.

29 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

  EVERYTHING is on the CARNAL LEVEL.  I don't know if you see the spiritual world as all AIR and/or thought or imagination or something else, as I AM GUESSING HERE but you sure don't have the same understanding I have.

That's because I believe what the Bible says, and you are confused what the Bible says.

29 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

  23In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.

24And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

26And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

OK, just more verses from an uncited passage and without any comment.  Make one or two and I'll comment on your comments.

29 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Ditto here.

29 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Rev 19

9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Ditto here.

29 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

6And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

7Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

And, ditto here.  If you are unable to make a comment after quoting verses in a passage, then don't bother.  I have no idea what is going through your head.   

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

OK, let's test this out.  You claim there will be just ONE resurrection, which will include both all believers and all unbelievers.  

WRONG.  I don't say there is ONE resurrection of both believers and unbelievers

I say there is ONE resurrection OF THE DEAD when Christ returns.  

So who are the DEAD? 

Those who have never come to faith, UNBELIEVERS.

Those who NEVER HEARD the words of God, never made a choicer's

Those who were deceived and took the mark of the beast, BELIEVERS WHO WERE NOT BARREN when Christ returned but had been in bed with the DEVIL and who had been worshiping the IMAGE and buying and selling


SO, DON'T PUT YOUR WORDS IN MY MOUTH.  I have said all along and have never waivered that THOSE WHO ARE HIS WHEN HE RETURNS 

are the alive and remaining.  HE IS returning WITH ALL THE HOLY SAINTS, not RESURRECTING THEM.  

 

It is THE DEAD who rise when He returns, just like it is written.  

YOU call the LIVING 'the dead' for whatever reason, that is your choice,

BUT I DON'T.  


 

[FreeGrace]

33 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:



 

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.



 

39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Go to v.44.  It will explain in clear words what a natural body means and what a spiritual body means.

And again, please stop quoting a line of verses from an uncited passage.  If you can't cite where the passage is, don't bother.  Let everyone know where the passage is so they can see for themselves whether you understand context or not.

[FreeGrace]

20 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

and THE GRAVES WERE OPENED

 

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

every man IN HIS OWN ORDER, those who are alive DON'T PREVENT those who have died the common death from LIVING ON, being raised up, going to be with the Lord where He is, following Him, being raised in glory and power and incorruption
 

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

CHRIST was the FIRSTFRUIT, and making the whole lump holy, the firstfruits of THEM THAT SLEPT had their graves opened DEATH COULED NO LONGER HOLD THEM IN THE PLACE OF THE DEAD

Then all those who were UNDER GRACE also didn't go pay the penalty for sin or didn't go to the PLACE OF THE DEAD so they were raised up

and so it goes to the VERY END 

when HE RETURNS FOR THE 2ND ADVENT in which THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAINING ARE CHANGED AND CAUGHT UP TO 

JOIN ALL THE HOLY SAINTS IN THE CLOUDS WHO HAVE RETURNED WITH HIM
NOT WHO HAVE JUST RISEN.  

Those who FOLLOWED HIM return with HIM

but THE DEAD, those who didn't know HOW to follow Him because they DIDN'T KNOW THE WAY, THEY DIDN'T KNOW THE LIFE, THEY DIDN'T KNOW THE RESURRECTION, THEY DIDN'T COME TO FAITH AND DIDN'T BELIEVE WHILE THEY LIVED, THEY CHOSE THE WAYS OF THE WORLD, THEY WERE DECEIVED, THEY CHOSE DEATH, THEY WERE DEAD BEFORE THEY EVER DIED, dead when they died and dead when they were raised up.

I'll comment ONLY IF you provide some comment to all the verses you quote.

[FreeGrace]

14 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Yes, and those of the FIRST resurrection, NOT OF TIME but of salvation HAVING received the gift of eternal life by ways of faith

I have no idea what you mean by "not of time but of salvation having received the gift of eternal life...".  We're talking about the first resurrection, which is at the Second Advent.

14 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

have been FOLLOWING HIM to go be where He is ever since He ascended.  Why?  Because at the common death, the death of the flesh and blood body, they rise.

Who are "they" and define what you mean by "rise".  Then I'll comment.

14 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

 And WITH WHAT BODY DO THEY RISE?  

But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

if GOD is giving body A BARE GRAIN THIS BODY PRODUCES, the WHAT BODY ARE YOU SAYING RISES UP FROM THE CORRUPTION FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NEVER DIED BUT CONTINUED ON LIVING IN THEIR SPIRITUAL BODY? 

39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Once again, v.44 explains everything that you are confused about.

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Thanks for the verses.  But what is your point?  Are you ignoring 2 Cor 5:6,8?  Do you believe what Paul wrote or not?  And what do you think Paul was teaching in v.35-44?  Just quoting verses without any comment isn't helpful, since I have no idea what you understand about them.

BUILD upon what you are given....

1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.


WHAT, MORTALITY IS SWALLOWED UP BY LIFE and you haven't even been back to the earth to get a body yet?  How do you explain that?

 

5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:


that would be the FLESH AND BLOOD ONE the one that QUICKENS the 'seed' that GOD GIVES A BODY TO
 

7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

absent FROM THE FLESH AND BLOOD ONE
 

9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.


 

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

It doesn't say SPIRIT, it doesn't say AIR, it doesn't say BREATH, it says WE because WE are in our physical spiritual body APPEARING before Christ



but the DEAD will be standing ON THE EARTH, at the GWTJ before GOD.