Did the 'dead' rise before Christ did?

[DeighAnn]

7 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

You're confused.  God never gets mad.  That's a human emotion only.  The WRATH of God is His policy toward sin.  There's a big difference that needs discernment to understand.

If you would like to have a discussion please go start a thread, so we don't go off topic here, thanks.  I'll address any question there but not here.  THANKS again.

Wow, how perfect though as I just posted this in another thread, IT'S LIKE GOD ALWAYS KNOWS. 

6From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

7Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.

8And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.

9Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

10Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

11To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

12When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

13Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

15And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

16Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

17Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

19If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

20But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

21How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

22Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:

23Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

24Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:

25And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:

26And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.

27Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

28And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

You need to contribute in this matter something more substantial besides moods. Moods cannot be discussed, "the yes this it is so" but what about this. that is not sufficient. It is sufficient to confusion.

To say yes and then to say but, it shows instability, it shows that you are walking two different paths at the same time.  

I am walking but a single path to Christ. I have two companions. One is knowledge and knowledge walks beside me. Wisdom walks ahead, but I'm catching up.

Wisdom has taught me to consider all relevant facts on a matter before I conclude.

I can agree on fundamental ideas but still not have Why? When? and How?

 

17 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

We are in John 11:26 and we have recorded there the words of Jesus. And Jesus asks: Do you believe this?  

You said "yes". Did you really say yes with a yes to yes? 

   John 11:26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” 

this is what we are focusing on, the subject of the discussion.  

please comment on the same matter and then if you want to discuss something else, let it be know. 

The words Jesus use is to live believing in him and "never die".

We understand that he was not speaking about the physical death of the body, because we all know that we die the physical death, and we do not need anyone to tell us that...so what is the point you want to discuss? 

I see. You want to discuss a single statement. I have to look for and consider all the evidence on a topic. I cannot reach an accurate conclusion apart from looking for every truth on the topic. 

17 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I am trying to speak without prejudice to anyone.  

What Jesus said it applies to whoever leaves believing in him...that he will never die. He will always be alive in him. 

living believing in Him it is living in Him in his Life... Jesus is ahead of their time to after his death on the Cross after his Atonement for the forgiveness of our sins after shedding the blood of the New Covenant.  

the believer in him for the forgiveness of his sins will be in the forgiveness of his sins and he will die having forgiveness of his sins as an act of God. The believer will be alive always to God.

that makes clear that Jesus has considered a lot of things all the relevant situations and he said: that the believer in him never dies. Jesus also considered all the situations where the people under the Sinai Covenant died to God..

When they did not follow their religious Calendar, and were not allowed to participate in the YEARLY ATONEMENT, yearly life with their Lord God (not with the Heavenly Father).

And if they sin during that year they had to offer their individual sacrifice to make Atonement for their sin (because with their sin were dead to God and to the community of those who were alive to God in the yearly Atonement.  

Jesus said the believer in him never dies....the obedient Israelites who practice the yearly religious Calendar and the yearly Atonement the died at the end of the religious year or if they sin or when the Sinai Covenant is put away and the Atonement sacrifices put away the Israelites will find them selves dead in their sins. 

Jesus Christ said the living believer will never find himself dead in his sins...and when he physicaphysically dies, he always dies alive to God...always dies having his sins forgiven...He never dies in his sins, he dies alive to God because he died believing in Jesus Christ.  

Doesn't illuminate anything to just repeat. I'm also not keen on a whole story made up of a single verse. That's the very reason I'm selective about the preaching I listen to.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

HERE IS ME, for the last time ADDRESSING JESUS and HIS BODY and WHY I KNOW OUR bodies are not EXACTLY like His and NEVER have been.

NOT when He walked the earth (He could walk on water and DISAPPEAR in the midst of people and turn a few fishes and loaves of bread into many etc.)  

JESUS DIDN'T HAVE A FLESH AND BLOOD DAD.  

God wasn't going to HAVE HIS BODY go back to dust.  GOD wasn't leaving HIS BODY in the GRAVE.  DEATH was NOT GOING TO BE FEEDING OFF THE BODY OF GOD.  WHY?  I don't know?  

Maybe IT is because HE IS THE LAMB OF GOD SLAIN AND the 'signs' of that remain so we NEVER FORGET IT, again I don't know.  

BUT we will be like Him when He appears.  Doesn't say we will be EXACTLY LIKE HIM, but it does say OUR BODIES GO BACK TO DUST and the body WE SOW is NOT the body that will be and THAT IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.  

You may be correct. Still, God made Adam from the dust. We can be reconstituted in the same form with an imperishable nature. 

 

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

How do WE KNOW FOR SURE, BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT, WITHOUT QUESTION

 that THE BODIES OF THE SAINTS that WERE raised up when the graves OPENED were SPIRITUAL BODIES and not THESE SAME BODIES THAT WERE SOWN?

 

BECAUSE once we

34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

I would agree it's a different nature. You know that every grain produces the seed that grows new plants? This is one reason why it seems plausible we are raised in the same form but in an immortal nature. Just like Jesus was. Same form and face, bearing the scars, filled with all Godly power, and taken up to heaven in that same form.

 

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

EVER heard of DOLLY, the cloned sheep?  A STRAND of DNA, A BARE GRAIN for her flesh and blood body.  MAYBE GOD HAS A BOOK WITH ALL OUR INDIVIDUAL DNA STRANDS OR SOMETHING and HE goes to the OTHER BOOKS and looks up our history and GIVES US whatever body WE deserve...I DON'T KNOW but STILL I take what is written as WHAT IS TRUTH

Maybe. Nothing is said about that in scripture of which I am aware. 

It does seem that if we are given new names, it's still the same person, body, mind, and spirit, but now immortal and renamed. 

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Why do I believe PAULS WRITINGS?  Because I believe IN THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH and if HE DIDN'T want PAULS WRITINGS in HIS WORD, they wouldn't be there.  I don't think He left them in there to confuse us.  And since they CAUSE MY BELIEFS NO CONFLICTS I have no reason to doubt them.  Do you? 

Nope. I'm just diligent to make sure it's God's words and not just Paul's.

 

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 
38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

why would GOD be giving a BARE GRAIN a body if indeed THIS BODY was going to be reformed???  Can you explain that?

It's just an analogy. A grain of wheat sown grows into wheat bearing the seeds of it's own perennial rebirth, but always into wheat, never into oats, flax or corn.

The seed of wheat becomes an enhanced form of the seed, bearing fruit. 

Still wheat, just better.

 

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

when THE GRAVES were opened those that SLEPT were raised up.  (Since they were BURIED under the LAW THEIR 'resurrection' IS DIFFERENT from ours in that we will not be buried but the same principles apply)

Dispensational foolishness. All from all time are saved by grace through faith and that applies to everyone who ever lived. 

Only one person ever fulfilled the terms of the law and that is the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

HOW does the resurrection of the DEAD go?  
 

42So also is the resurrection of the dead.

It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


So, they were dead and they were raised up.   DO YOU BELIEVE what is written HERE OR NOT?  

 

Of course. 

 

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Then just come straight out and say it, I don't believe Jesus.  

Again and AGAIN and again I SAY the flesh and blood body dies.  As in Adam all die. 

The COMMON DEATH of the first body happens to everyone.  


How does THIS NOT SUPPORT MY CLAIM is what I would like to know?
 

23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die.

Believest thou this?   ARE YOU SAYING

your answer to this question is NO, I DON'T BELIEVE YOU JESUS? 

 

You make the claim it's immediate. I don't know that it is and I'm not convinced anyone else does either. There is dispute and various groups have dogmatic stances about it. 

Do we go immediately to be with Jesus? Is there a waiting period? Do we go to some safe place and await arrival in to the kingdom of God? Is there a rest like suspended animation? Does everyone who goes to heaven have the same experience on the trip from here to there? I don't have those answers. 

I know that the beheaded on Rev 20:4 were very much dead then came to life to live and reign with Jesus, so they weren't living until the resurrection. Where were they? 

The souls under the altar in Rev 6:9-11 are disembodied spirits by the use of the term psyche and the fact the resurrection hasn't yet occurred. Maybe the souls under the altar are an exalted subset of all the resurrected. 

There are quite a lot of questions and a mountain of evidence to consider. 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

QUIT JUDGING ME on what YOU PERCEIVE as to what I do or do not do, know or do not know just because you disagree with my beliefs.  

I can only know what I read on this site. What you write is what you do. 

Actions mean more than words.

[DeighAnn]

41 minutes ago, Diaste said:

You may be correct. Still, God made Adam from the dust. We can be reconstituted in the same form with an imperishable nature. 

We absolutely will have the same form, just not made out of decay from the corrupted earth..  

What happens to the outer shell of a seed when planted in the ground?  Can you bring it back to life once the 'grain' has sprung up from it?  

'thou sowest not the body that will be'....what does that mean? 

but bare grain...what does that mean?

and to every seed God gives a body...what does that mean?

do ANY of those sound like an OLD BODY being raised up?

 

 

45 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I would agree it's a different nature. You know that every grain produces the seed that grows new plants? This is one reason why it seems plausible we are raised in the same form but in an immortal nature. Just like Jesus was. Same form and face, bearing the scars, filled with all Godly power, and taken up to heaven in that same form.

 What is the 'body made in heaven without hands' made of?  

[DeighAnn]

49 minutes ago, Diaste said:

It does seem that if we are given new names, it's still the same person, body, mind, and spirit, but now immortal and renamed. 

I figured out something earlier today.  You may just not see it, and it is simple as that.  I have given all God has given up to now, so let's just leave it here.  I'm good with that.  I hope you are also. 

[Diaste]

12 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

We absolutely will have the same form, just not made out of decay from the corrupted earth..  

What happens to the outer shell of a seed when planted in the ground?  Can you bring it back to life once the 'grain' has sprung up from it?  

'thou sowest not the body that will be'....what does that mean? 

but bare grain...what does that mean?

and to every seed God gives a body...what does that mean?

do ANY of those sound like an OLD BODY being raised up?

I don't know if I said the exact same old body is somehow preserved then raised up. 

If I did imply that I should not have. If I didn't, why do you keep arguing against something I did not say?

It's the same form, enhanced to the point of immortality. Like If I died and then was later resurrected into immortality then everyone I knew previously would recognize me. Just like Christ was resurrected in the same form and when He allowed it, everyone who knew Him before He died recognized Him. 

And we are resurrected in that same verisimilitude. 

God created us just like He wanted us. I don't think He rolled dice and then let chance dictate. He will keep us just as we are in form and face, but upon resurrection we are enhanced into the full glory which was intended before the fall. 

I'm convinced the examples of scripture back that up.

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

FreeGrace said: 

You're confused.  God never gets mad.  That's a human emotion only.  The WRATH of God is His policy toward sin.  There's a big difference that needs discernment to understand.

If you would like to have a discussion please go start a thread, so we don't go off topic here, thanks.  I'll address any question there but not here.  THANKS again.

Well, you're the one who mentioned God getting mad.  I was just correcting your misconception.

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

6From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

7Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.

8And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.

9Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

10Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

11To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

12When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

13Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

15And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

16Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

17Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

19If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

20But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

21How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

22Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:

23Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

24Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:

25And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:

26And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.

27Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

28And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

Really?  Again?  Why can't you include the book and chapter when you quote a long passage?  Oh, and btw, please leave a comment as to WHY you felt the need to quote a long passage in the first place.

[Diaste]

25 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

What is the 'body made in heaven without hands' made of?

If you read before and after the selected snippet one should conclude it's a change from mortal to immortal. The immortal, the change of nature from mortal to immortal, is the cloth of which we will be clothed. 

The spiritual, and bodily, perfection to immortality is what awaits.