Did the 'dead' rise before Christ did?

[Buzzard3]

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

What is a soul?  A BODY and breath.       

In that case, what's the difference between a soul and a resurrected human?

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 We have two bodies.  Why would we quit being souls?  

???

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Mount of transfiguration, was Jesus just ACTING like He was speaking to them?

Whatever form Moses and Elijah took on that occasion, they weren't resurrected, since no one was resurrected before Jesus was.  

Moses and Elijah could have appeared as visions, or they could have been given temporary bodies like those given to the angels who visited Abraham and ate with him (Gen 18).

[Buzzard3]

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

What was God saying to Moses?  They are dead but I am still their God?  

Yes.

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

If so then why did He say He was NOT the God of the dead?  

Because they're alive as souls in Heaven (awaiting the resurrection when Christ comes again at the end of time).

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DeighAnn.

I'm starting in this topic back at the beginning.

The answer to your question is, "No, Yeeshuwa` (Jesus) was talking to the Ts'duqqiym ('Righteous Ones,' 'Sadducees') here and was answering their argument AGAINST the Resurrection in the achariyt hayammiym ('end of days')! Read the WHOLE encounter to understand the interchange:

Matthew 22:23-33 (KJV)

23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, WHICH SAY THAT THERE IS NO RESURRECTION, and asked him, 24Saying,

"Master, Moses said, 'If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.' 25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: 26Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. 27And last of all the woman died also. 28Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her."

29 Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For IN THE RESURRECTION they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels [messengers] of God in heaven. 31 But AS TOUCHING THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but OF THE LIVING." 

33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

And, Mattityahuw ("Matthew") was not the only witness to this exchange! Yochanan Marcus ("John Mark"), who probably wrote for Peter, said,

Mark 12:18-27 (KJV)

18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, WHICH SAY THERE IS NO RESURRECTION; and they asked him, saying, 

19 "Master, Moses wrote unto us, 'If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.' 20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed. 21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise. 22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also. 23 IN THE RESURRECTION THEREFORE, WHEN THEY SHALL RISE, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife!"

24 And Jesus answering said unto them,

"Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 25 For WHEN THEY SHALL RISE FROM THE DEAD, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. 26 And AS TOUCHING THE DEAD, THAT THEY RISE: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err!"

And, Lukas the Physician also noted the accounts of this instance:

Luke 20:27-40 (KJV)

27 Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, WHICH DENY THAT THERE IS ANY RESURRECTION; and they asked him, 28 Saying,

"Master, Moses wrote unto us, 'If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.' 29 There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. 30 And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. 31 And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. 32 Last of all the woman died also. 33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife."

34 And Jesus answering said unto them,

"The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord 'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' 38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him."

39 Then certain of the scribes answering said,

"Master, thou hast well said." 

40 And after that they durst not ask him any question at all.

So, the Ts'duqqiym were trying to refute a RESURRECTION of the JUST! But, Yeeshuwa` simply told them that that would be when 'Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqoV (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) would rise again, too! THAT'S why God is "not a God of the dead, but of the living!"

Exodus 3:6 

6.I am the God of your father,* he continued, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.

* The first words to Moses were "I am the God of your father".

(how do we know if he meant Moses father or "Father Abraham?")

And then he continued, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac,

(no mention of any of the other children of Abraham (not even Ismael the first born of Abraham, from Hagar)

God excluded all the other children of Abraham but the only son Abraham had with Sarah. 

God is telling Moses that he is not the God of Ismael and the other children of Abraham and then when he includes only Jacob that he is not the God of Esau. 

We can understand that God did not just exclude the other children of Abraham and Esau in his adress to Moses but he also informed Moses that he has also excluded their children and their children's children. 

God by telling to Moses that he is the God of his father he let Moses know that he has included all of Jacob’s children all the Patriarchs of the tribes of the Nation of Israel. Later God makes that clear by telling Moses that He is the God of Israel, with a big statement that he was not the God of any other Nation before by saying that "Israel is my first born and I want no other.  Earlier he had included Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, at that time he included the 12 Patriarchs of the tribe of Israel and their children's children. 

And he excluded all the other Nations and people of the earth including Pharaoh because this is a message Moses had to give to Pharaoh. 

We have to keep in mind that Moses did not have the knowledge he had at a later time when he wrote Genesis and the events that took place and the Covenant God made with Abraham and with Isaac and with Jacob.  

He did not know that God bless Jacob with what he was asking him. To include all his children in the blessings and to exclude none.

Just like Abraham and Sarah Jacob had a lot of children with the Lea and the maids of Lea and Rachel but none with his favorite wife the one he love Rachel...Jacob did not want to happen to his children what happened to Abraham and to Issac and God blessed him to include all his children in the blessings even those who were not born ye8t the children of Rachel...and he named him "ISRAEL" the Patriarch of the Nation of Israel. 

After the Covenant God made with Jacob his children and their children's children were included in that Covenant they inherit the Covenant God made with Jacob. 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Now according to you ,this man of sin came to his end in 27 ad.Why then would Paul say this man of sin would perish at Christs coming?

Do NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.  

JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN ONLY SEE IT ONE WAY DOESN'T MEAN THAT IS THE WAY I SEE IT.  JUST BECAUSE I BELIEVE ONE THING DOESN'T MEAN I BELIEVE SOMETHING ELSE

THAT IS YOU PUTTING WHAT I BELIEVE INTO THE MIDDLE OF YOUR BELIEFS

DON'T DO IT AGAIN OR I WILL REPORT YOU

 

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

 

Daniel 11:36

The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.

 

Chapter 11 shows the man of sin who exalts himself above all coming to his end in Daniel 11:45

 

Daniel 11:45

He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.

 

Now according to you ,this man of sin came to his end in 27 ad.Why then would Paul say this man of sin would perish at Christs coming?

 

2 Thes 2

 

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

⁵ Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

⁶ And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

⁷ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

⁸ And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

 

You fail to see the man of sin did not come to his end in 27 ad as you suggest.

 

 

By the way,who are you saying was the man of sin was who exalted himself above all,and died in  27 ad anyway?Do you have a name for him?

WHAT IS SAID it there was GREAT TRIBULATION that took place during the time of Jesus

I did not say it was the trib of the end time

I did not say the man of sin came

I did not say the beast rose up

I said there was great tribulation signs in the sun, an earthquake and that the GRAVES WERE OPENED  a prophecy given in of the old test and the scroll Jesus read from the Isa 61 speaking to the of setting free the captives...

THAT is what I said.  That is what I meant.  I have not be discussing the last days except to say the GRAVES WERE opened as stated in dan 12 was about those days and not the resurrection of the dead in the future.   

 

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

I'm not the one saying the first resurrection has taken place.You are.

I am saying it doesn't mean the same thing to us.  

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

THAT'S why God is "not a God of the dead, but of the living!"

Say what you will but IF THEY WERE DEAD and not living

and He said HE WAS NOT THE GOD OF THE DEAD, but the GOD of the LIVING

THEN the FACT IS HE COULDN'T HAVE SAID HE WAS THEIR GOD.  

Either they were LIVING and He was their God

or they were dead and HE WAS NOT.  

ANYTHING OTHER THAN THAT

MAKES THAT VOID.  

They dead, HE NOT THEIR GOD

They alive, HE IS THEIR GOD. 

If they are going TO LIVE AGAIN AFTER THEY ARE DEAD, THEN HE CAN BE THEIR GOD THEN,

BUT CAN'T BE THEIR GOD WHEN THEY ARE DEAD and SAY HE IS NOT THE GOD OF THE DEAD.

 

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

It's not "one group of two"; it's "TWO one's!"

ABOUT TO BE

A SINGLE RESURRECTION, NOT PLURAL RESURRECTIONS

ABOUT TO BE NOT 

about to be followed

to be followed by another about to be later on.   

THAT IS DOCTRINE THAT DEMANDS WHAT IS SIMPLE to be made complicated.  

NO ONE could ever read the bible and understand if NOTHING could ever simply be taken as TRUTH. 

 

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Why not address the verses I shared and show me where my error is in understanding what the verses say?  That shouldn't be too difficult.

Why would I do another two when you won't even address the first one? 

I show it you say I don't I show it you say I don't I show it you say I dont.  I showed it, you say I didn't.  Should we go again?  

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

If there are ANY of the verses I quoted that say something DIFFERENT in the Greek than the translation, please make your case.

Otherwise, you have no case.

I showed it, you say I didn't.  I showed it you say I didn't.  I showed it, you say I didn't.  I have done it in numerous threads, you keep saying I didn't, I keep doing it.  You say I didn't I say I did.  You say I didn't I say I did.  Shall we go again.