Reformed Restriction

[Anne2]

36 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

2. 2 Cor. 11: 2 Paul is speaking to HIS disciples and desiring them to be pure. He wants to PRESENT them to the Lord as such. We know from God`s word that Paul does NOT PRESENT us to the Lord, for it is the Lord Himself who will PRESENT us to Himself. (Jude 24)

The Byzantine Greek does not have the word "I" there. But is translated that way. I don't have much Issue with that since it is his ministry as an Apostle to the Gentiles to preach the Gospel and discipline, install teachers  etc. the entire Church. IT is the holy spirit working in each individual which purifies.

So that is not really an issue. 

 

[Marilyn C]

15 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

The Byzantine Greek does not have the word "I" there. But is translated that way. I don't have much Issue with that since it is his ministry as an Apostle to the Gentiles to preach the Gospel and discipline, install teachers  etc. the entire Church. IT is the holy spirit working in each individual which purifies.

So that is not really an issue. 

 

Not really sure what you mean there, Annie. Could you please clarify for me please? 

[Anne2]

28 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Not really sure what you mean there, Annie. Could you please clarify for me please? 

I am not surprised. I probably didn't say it well. 

What I mean is that Paul may not have said what was translated he Said. Rather It could have been that by his apostleship of the Church They were espoused, and through his apostleship they would be presented a chaste virgin. That God THROUGH his minsters does this work through them. The word I is not there in the Greek. Either way Even if it did say "I" it is God which works through them and in them. Hope that is understandable. He is talking about his ministry which God has called him to do concerning the Church. Which ministry is not from himself or his own power but God in him.

[Marilyn C]

32 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

I am not surprised. I probably didn't say it well. 

What I mean is that Paul may not have said what was translated he Said. Rather It could have been that by his apostleship of the Church They were espoused, and through his apostleship they would be presented a chaste virgin. That God THROUGH his minsters does this work through them. The word I is not there in the Greek. Either way Even if it did say "I" it is God which works through them and in them. Hope that is understandable. He is talking about his ministry which God has called him to do concerning the Church. Which ministry is not from himself or his own power but God in him.

Thank you that was much clearer. I agree that it is the Holy Spirit (by the Head, Christ) that worked through the Apostle Paul. We learn of the early believers and of how they functioned and what attitudes we are to have etc.

However, we need to remember that Paul was actually talking in his letters to his disciples, things that related to them specifically.  For example -

`I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to minister to you. And when I was present with you, and in need, I was a burden to no one, for what I lacked the brethren who came from Macedonia supplied. And in everything I kept myself from being burdensome to you, and so I will keep myself.` (2 Cor. 11: 8 & 9)

Remember the letters are written to specific people, and we need to be careful not to make it all about ourselves. We learn truths and are warned, but not take on everything personally.

[kwikphilly]

3 hours ago, Anne2 said:

All I can think to say:

We should not forget the doctrine of the trinity is about God's nature. 

The persons of the Godhead. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy spirit. Gods eternal nature

Jesus is God the Son from all eternity made flesh. A distinct theology of Christology. They did not attempt to mix the two. 

The Fathers did not intend that doctrine as an explanation. For neither they nor us could understand it with our finite minds. The doctrine was to respond to heresies in their day. The terms they used were simply for ways to think and speak about God's nature is all.

Blessings Anne

Excellent!We'll said and even to this day it should not be a means to " explain ' our Doctrine but to Glorify GOD(Father,Son & Holy Spirit)....

Ive heard(& no doubt everyone has) a million ways to Sunday of " explanations " and it always sort of makes me laugh- who on this earth could explain such a thing as this?!!!!I've not heard a single expkanatuon that has every lead me to believe the one that are  " explaining" havd much of an actual understanding- lol   I Know I dont! I very simply Believe and not because of what I READ but because His Word is Written on my Heart Because I Received ( yes,through the Written Word ,the Living Word...isn't it that simple?

Jesus is the Way,the Truth and the Life....He WAS ( before Abraham) He WAS the ONE in Whom ALL things WERE Made-yet Every Written Word recorded by the Apostles from His Lips He Spoke while He Was Humbly Serving--so of course He would not Say " I AM GOD " - that would mean what then? Thst God is not Omnipotent,Omnipresent,Omniscient? I do think that would be even more confusing than His Triune Eternal Nature- wouldn't it?

I could say,I'm  Trinitarian because of the WHOLE of the Bible in Context-- Now I have no idea if I've said this appropriately for others to understand but its the best I could do --- Jesus Prayed to " the Father" for the benefit of them that " heard" ....let those who have ears " Hear"

With love in Christ,Kwik

[Truswell]

The owner/creator of Greyhound buses can still be a bus driver, even though he may not want to humble himself or suffer the difficulties along the way.

.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Truswell

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

It behooves me now to bring the truth as I was taught and believe on those two scriptures.

1. Eph. 5: 21 - 32. This is just an exhortation for husbands to love their wives as Christ does His Body, (new man). It is not a laid out doctrine. 

2. 2 Cor. 11: 2 Paul is speaking to HIS disciples and desiring them to be pure. He wants to PRESENT them to the Lord as such. We know from God`s word that Paul does NOT PRESENT us to the Lord, for it is the Lord Himself who will PRESENT us to Himself. (Jude 24)

Who said this Sis?

Eph.5:25-27
[25] Husbands, love your wives, EVEN AS Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
[26] That HE MIGHT SANCTIFY and CLEANSE IT with the washing of water by the word,
[27] That HE MIGHT PRESENT IT TO HIMELF a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; BUT THAT IT SHOULD BE HOLY and without blemish.

Paul did

When we pit the scriptures it means we are either not understanding them correctly or comparing them incorrectly. Both can be true.

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Huh, didn`t mean that, sorry. Maybe I should say it another way.

Sis, you had asked after the word "bride" after the initial scriptures I had provided and I just pasted them there with nothing further. I felt it a little senseless to go there (into the more obscure) if what is called a mystery has been made plain for us concerning the man and his wife as Paul said it pertained to Christ and the church (I added them back in again below) but most of the bride verses show up in Revelation and ends up killing the conversation by flying off into the far more obscure when Paul tells us very plainly, that this great mystery from the beginning concerning a man and his wife pertains to no other but Christ and the Church (wife).

This is what I have minus some of the former comparisons

There's the bride, the bridegroom and the friend of the bridegroom

Jesus tells us who his friends are

John 15:4 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

We have the voice of the bridegroom and John's voice

John 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord

Who bears record of the Son of God

John 1:27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me

Who also tells us

John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him,  rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

And that

John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

John's joy is fulfilled in hearing the bridegroom's voice. He is the friend, which stands and hears him and in pointing them to Jesus Christ (to both hear and follow for themselves) his own disciples having been prepared by him, these leave off of following him (he must decrease) and to follow after Jesus' (who must increase) for themselves.

Being the friend of the bridegroom,  and he says, "this my joy therefore is fulfilled."

Just as the apostles might say,

3 John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

Even as their their obedience is fulfilled

Phil 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

Their wish was for their perfection, and they desire to finish their course with joy serving Christ, taking the oversight over the flock of God for their good

As Paul

2 Cr 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

2 Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

She/The church is to belong to Jesus Christ, not another

Ephes 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Ephes 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

And we have the Kingdom of God likened to ten virgins went forth to meet the bridegroom. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

The lamps of the foolish virgins had no oil, and their lamps had gone out and so they went off to buy oil

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

These virgins are shown as being ready and it says, they who were ready went in with him (the bridegroom) to the marriage

And then here it say, " the marriage of the Lamb is come

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

His wife hath made herself ready,

Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white:  for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

It was granted her that she should be arrayed in what is the righteousness of the saints, when he is the righteousness of the saints

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe

To the wife having made herself ready  was granted that she should be arrayed  in the righteousness of saints

A brides attire

Jeremiah 2:32 Can a maid forget her ornaments, or a bride her attire? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

Comparing the brides attire to himself there

Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. 

And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

So we have the wife has made herself ready in Rev 19:7 and then also after the first heaven and earth have passed away here

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Where John saw the holy city coming down from God out of heaven adorned as a bride

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men  and he will dwell with them follows this

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them,  and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And now here

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues,  and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Carrying him away in the spirit to a great and high mountain to show him that city

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city,  the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

She is described as

Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

A city has no need of either the sun or moon to shine "in it" here

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it,  and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Same, glory of God, and stone most precious and Lamb/light

Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious"

As Jesus Christ also is called a precious stone, and the light of the world, and the Lamb is the light of this city depicts to me of Christ in a people (a city on a hill) according to the particular description there, and also says,

... Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain,

and shewed me that great city

Where the glory of God did lighten it,

and the Lamb is the light thereof.

This is pretty much what I have, just posting these as far a I see them laid out so far, I don't argue with the scripture though so there's no debate with me unless something is not scripture, or the twisting the scripture or something like that, I prefer to confirm the scriptures whenever I can (and add further to other scriptures when I can) but not pit them or make them contradict.

[WordSword]

On 11/10/2023 at 12:19 AM, Michael37 said:

Scripture disagrees with you @WordSword

Isa 9:6-7  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.  (7)  Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

I suppose I shouldn't say the Son and spirit are not God, because They represent Him in the sense that it's God Himself.

[Anne2]

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Thank you that was much clearer. I agree that it is the Holy Spirit (by the Head, Christ) that worked through the Apostle Paul. We learn of the early believers and of how they functioned and what attitudes we are to have etc.

Thank you as well. It's always nice to know I have been clear. Does not always happen LOL.

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

However, we need to remember that Paul was actually talking in his letters to his disciples, things that related to them specifically.  For example -

`I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to minister to you. And when I was present with you, and in need, I was a burden to no one, for what I lacked the brethren who came from Macedonia supplied. And in everything I kept myself from being burdensome to you, and so I will keep myself.` (2 Cor. 11: 8 & 9)

Ok. Honestly I am not processing the relevance here. Sorry, I can be thick at times as well :-). Ok, so he was speaking to specific assembly of the Church. 

He did the same here

Rom. 15:25  But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
26  For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
 

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Remember the letters are written to specific people, and we need to be careful not to make it all about ourselves. We learn truths and are warned, but not take on everything personally.

Again, I am not grasping the issue here. I do not know what you mean by personally. Do you mean not to take disagreement personally? I would agree with that.

Paul did often speak to specific people. This in Romans may have some relevance to the discussion (not sure).

Specific ministry.....

Rom 15:15  Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16  That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
17  I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
 

Specific foundation......

18  For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
19  Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

To those which Christ had not been named.....building on his own Apostolic foundation, an apostle to the nations...
20  Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation:
 

There is this. Before Cornelious.....

Ac 11:19  Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
 

Eph 2:19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Anne2