BODY AND SOUL AND SPIRIT

[Butch5]

On 11/4/2023 at 7:21 PM, jeremiah1five said:

This was what Adam was created with.

A body housing a soul and having a human spirit (not the Holy Spirit.)

When Adam sinned, he died "in the day" he ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

He didn't die body-wise for he lived 930 years and had children.

He didn't die soul-fully for the soul is comprised of intellect, mind, emotions, senses, conscience and will.

His human spirit died. He remained body and soul - no human spirit. Everyone born from him is body and soul. It is only through being born again that God creates a new human spirit in the person and the person is restored to the tri-fold image of God.

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Eph 4:23–24.

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor 5:17.

The unsaved who are never saved die body and soul and cast into "hell."

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Mt 10:28.

The human soul in conversion allows us to process spiritual phenomenon, even communicating with God who is Spirit.

I disagree with this. According to Genesis 2:7 the body and the breath or spirit of God combined to form the soul.

God told Adam that the day he ate of the Tree of Knowledge he would die. Adam did die that day. It wasn't spiritually. The day referred to there is the prophetic day. A day of 1000 years. This is both the ancient Jewish and early Christian understanding of the passages. Peter said, a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as one day. Adam died just short of 1000 years, thus he died in the day he ate of the tree.

 

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (1 Pet 3:8 KJV)

Edited September 27, 2024 by Butch5

[Whosoever]

God took dust from the earth, on His knees if you will, and "FORMED" a man with His hands and with GREAT love.  The mold or form of dust was called man before it rose.  Then God breathed into man through his nostrils, the "BREATH OF LIFE" and man "BECAME"..."BECAME"..."BECAME" a LIVING SOUL.  

Man did not "GET" a soul, MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL.  Man did not get a "SPIRIT", man got God's breath of life. We did not get a body, a soul, a spirit and the Holy Spirit.  

[jeremiah1five]

11 hours ago, Whosoever said:

God took dust from the earth, on His knees if you will, and "FORMED" a man with His hands and with GREAT love.  The mold or form of dust was called man before it rose.  Then God breathed into man through his nostrils, the "BREATH OF LIFE" and man "BECAME"..."BECAME"..."BECAME" a LIVING SOUL.  

Man did not "GET" a soul, MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL.  Man did not get a "SPIRIT", man got God's breath of life. We did not get a body, a soul, a spirit and the Holy Spirit.  

Man was already a body. God only animated the body and breathed into his nostrils and miraculously imparted (note: imPARTed) a foreknowledged soul and imPARTed a human spirit and man became a living soul. He wasn’t indwelt with the Holy Spirit for there wasn’t atonement yet. Man was created sinful (“missing the mark”) and fallen short of the glory of God (or THAT IS God) for Isaiah says, “there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory (sinlessness) to NO ONE.”

man was a sinner before he sinned and disobeyed God for sin comes from sinner…

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:13. 
 
… thus proving sin comes from sinner. 
 

besides this truth of Scripture man was already a sinner BEFORE he ate from the tree thus destroying the false teaching of a Fall:

6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Proverbs 30:6

 

and this is proved by their (man and woman) adding to His Words “neither shall ye touch it” in Gen 3:3. 
 

And even if you were to say Adam didn’t add to His Words, woman was taken from man and their similarity is striking (sinner comes from sinner) for it is impossible they were created holy or sinless for Isaiah says, “there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory (Holiness/Sinlessness, etc.) to NO ONE. Surely God reduplicated none of His Personal Nature and Attributes into any created matter. There is only ONE God. AND if man was created holy or sinless (nature of God) he would by necessity have to possess ALL God’s Nature and Attributes else he would be fallen short of the glory that is God for ONLY ONE PERSON can stand before a Holy God blameless and that is a Holy Son - Jesus the Christ (the Word made flesh.)

[Whosoever]

Man DID NOT get a "Human" spirit

[jeremiah1five]

49 minutes ago, Whosoever said:

Man DID NOT get a "Human" spirit

The makeup of man at creation was a trichotomy of body, soul, and human spirit.

A "day" with the Lord because He is eternal is the point blurred between beginning and end, and He knows the end because He ordained it. It was a 24-hour day for it is inconceivable that "morning and night were the first 1000-year day." With regard to earth and creation it did not take 1000 years for the earth to make one complete orbit-circuit. It took 24 hours as the other points of creation dictate and reveal.

It is also inconceivable that Adam died in a 1000-year day for he did live short of 1000 years (930 years) so your interpretation falls short of the truth. No one takes 1000 years to die.

[Fran C]

20 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

The makeup of man at creation was a trichotomy of body, soul, and human spirit.

A "day" with the Lord because He is eternal is the point blurred between beginning and end, and He knows the end because He ordained it. It was a 24-hour day for it is inconceivable that "morning and night were the first 1000-year day." With regard to earth and creation it did not take 1000 years for the earth to make one complete orbit-circuit. It took 24 hours as the other points of creation dictate and reveal.

It is also inconceivable that Adam died in a 1000-year day for he did live short of 1000 years (930 years) so your interpretation falls short of the truth. No one takes 1000 years to die.

You're right Jeremiah ...

Difficult to understand why there is so much confusion over this.

Another member posted that they believe in a dichotomy...which is acceptable because that teaching states that the soul and spirit are combined; however, the human person still consists of body, soul, and spirit.

I agree with you and understand the trichotomy model to be easier to understand and more properly represents the human person.

You're doing a good job of defending your position -

1 Thessalonians 5:23 is the best verse IMO:

   23Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[jeremiah1five]

32 minutes ago, Fran C said:

You're right Jeremiah ...

Difficult to understand why there is so much confusion over this.

Another member posted that they believe in a dichotomy...which is acceptable because that teaching states that the soul and spirit are combined; however, the human person still consists of body, soul, and spirit.

I agree with you and understand the trichotomy model to be easier to understand and more properly represents the human person.

You're doing a good job of defending your position -

1 Thessalonians 5:23 is the best verse IMO:

   23Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Hello Fran C. and thank you for that. 

Scripture says man died "in the day" he ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. He couldn't have taken a 1000-year "day" as earlier propositioned for what was it and where is it stated that earth went through a slowing down of its rotation in Scripture? I find no evidence. That position of thought fails also in that for earth to take 1000 years to rotate would have left one side scorched and the other frozen in a one-thousand-year ice age.

Another thing about the creation of man is that God created him trichotomy (body, soul, and human spirit - which I explain next) and that one part of his trichotomy died "in the 24-hour day" he ate from the forbidden tree. There was no poison in the tree. It was just a regular tree in the Garden that God used for this event. And take note it was a tree that God used to give him the KNOWLEDGE of (good) and evil, it didn't change him or make him evil. He was already that but since there was no restriction for any of his (and her) behaviors they only knew "good." It wasn't "a test" either. It was only to get the ball moving in the Plan of Man by God. So, "in the day" he ate from the tree his human spirit died, and he could not get it back. Christ rules the spirit(ual) realm and when the human spirit died there was a change in the mode of communication between man and God. But the point I want to make alongside this is that from that point on man became a dichotomy of body and soul - no human spirit. And it is through being born-again that God creates a new human spirit in His people, a human spirit that enables that man (and woman) the ability to process spiritual phenomenon and allows man to discern God, hear from God, and pray and worship Him. Thus, since these two (Adam and Eve) could not pass a human spirit to their children in birth. And so Jesus' words here are better understood:

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Mt 10:27–28.

The only people being cast into "hell" are dichotomy people (body and soul) and those who are going to be with God are those who have been born-again and a human spirit created anew for them:

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Th 5:23.

Here, Saul is writing to a people ALREADY saved and look at his description: (whole spirit and soul and body - born-again.)

Reference for the creation of a new human spirit:

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Eph 4:24.

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Co 5:17.

"Created" and "creature" in both verses is the same Greek word, a word which when transliterated in Hebrew corresponds to the word "bara" which means 'to create something out of nothing' and a word describing an act of God.

 

 

 

 

 

[Fran C]

16 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

Hello Fran C. and thank you for that. 

Scripture says man died "in the day" he ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. He couldn't have taken a 1000-year "day" as earlier propositioned for what was it and where is it stated that earth went through a slowing down of its rotation in Scripture? I find no evidence. That position of thought fails also in that for earth to take 1000 years to rotate would have left one side scorched and the other frozen in a one-thousand-year ice age.

You're right. No such animal.  Adam died a spiritual death and it's clearly stated.  Persons make up their own bible stories.  The curses beginning in Genesis 3:14 are proof enough that man became separated from God.

 

16 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

Another thing about the creation of man is that God created him trichotomy (body, soul, and human spirit - which I explain next) and that one part of his trichotomy died "in the 24-hour day" he ate from the forbidden tree. There was no poison in the tree. It was just a regular tree in the Garden that God used for this event. And take note it was a tree that God used to give him the KNOWLEDGE of (good) and evil, it didn't change him or make him evil. He was already that but since there was no restriction for any of his (and her) behaviors they only knew "good." It wasn't "a test" either. It was only to get the ball moving in the Plan of Man by God. So, "in the day" he ate from the tree his human spirit died, and he could not get it back. Christ rules the spirit(ual) realm and when the human spirit died there was a change in the mode of communication between man and God. But the point I want to make alongside this is that from that point on man became a dichotomy of body and soul - no human spirit. And it is through being born-again that God creates a new human spirit in His people, a human spirit that enables that man (and woman) the ability to process spiritual phenomenon and allows man to discern God, hear from God, and pray and worship Him. Thus, since these two (Adam and Eve) could not pass a human spirit to their children in birth. And so Jesus' words here are better understood:

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Mt 10:27–28.

Perfectly explained!

16 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

The only people being cast into "hell" are dichotomy people (body and soul) and those who are going to be with God are those who have been born-again and a human spirit created anew for them:

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Th 5:23.

Here, Saul is writing to a people ALREADY saved and look at his description: (whole spirit and soul and body - born-again.)

Perfect.

Good point about those in hell...they certainly are not born of spirit.  OR....to say it another way, do not have the spirit of God in them.

 

16 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

Reference for the creation of a new human spirit:

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Eph 4:24.

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Co 5:17.

"Created" and "creature" in both verses is the same Greek word, a word which when transliterated in Hebrew corresponds to the word "bara" which means 'to create something out of nothing' and a word describing an act of God.

Right on Jeremiah....mainline, orthodox (not Orthodox) Christianity!  I could add this:

bara means to create from nothing.

asah means to create from something (which is what man does).

We use the term create even for man because it's our language...but really only God can create.

Great post!

[Paleouss]

On 1/24/2024 at 8:07 PM, Charlie744 said:

In any event, I believe there is only 2 parts of the created man. In Genesis 2:7, God created man by combining the dust / dirt from the earth and then He breathed into it HIS SPIRIT- it was not meant as to breathe air (literal air) into the formed dust / dirt to activate it, but to breathe HIS SPIRIT into it. Thus, He created man in HIS IMAGE. It is a 2 part combination of A (earth) + B (HIS HOLY SPIRIT) = C (a soul). God created a “SOUL.”

Greetings Charlie744,  I hope your weekend is a good one.  I was reading this thread and thought it was interesting.

I somewhat agree with your analysis.  Before I start, I would like to state that I believe mankind, which is one whole, can be biblically and logically divided into an inner and outer self (2Cor 4:16).  Further, I think that mankind's inner self can be biblically and logically divided into a spirit and soul.  So we start with similar general conclusions.

However,  There a some key points where we may differ.  It would seem.

God (1) took (a) dust and (2) formed it.  Therefore, the first step is to create the form of the man.  This form can be properly said to be the "outer self" (2Cor 4:16).  This form was not alive nor was it a soul at this point.

Then God "breathed" the "breath of life" "into" the form.  This term "breathed" suggests 'to expel from' or to 'come from'.  The term "into" suggests 'to permeate within and around'.  And what was breathed?  The breath of life.  This "breath" means "spirit" or 'spirit of life'.  Here we do not agree because you call the breath of life the "Holy Spirit".  The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity and is the "helper" (John 14:26) that is sent by Christ from the Father.  They are not the same thing.

And then, and only then, "man became a living creature" (nep̄eš - or living soul).  So mankind is A(dust and otherness) + B(spirit and life), and through the creative act of combining the two... a soul emerges.  I say a soul emerges because A and B are still present.  So we have and outer self, the body, and an inner self composed, meaning a logical whole, of the spirit and soul.   

On 1/24/2024 at 8:07 PM, Charlie744 said:

But when Adam sinned, God’s HOLY SPIRIT that HE placed within Adam could no longer “be” within Adam. If HAD to return back to the only ONE that gave it to him.

I would have to make a distinction here.  First, the breath of life is not the Holy Spirit but the spirit of life.  These two are different.  So if the spirit of life was removed from man then he would die, immediately, since what has been removed was "life", for it is the "spirit of life".

It was “the breath of the Almighty [that] gives him life” (Job 33:4, Gen 1:27). And the breath of life, the breath being of spirit, is now the spirit of man (Job 32:8, Zech 12:1) that once was and is the breath of life from God (Job 12:10, 33:4). But this life is now distinctively man’s life that is bound up in oneness with both the outer and the inner self.

Peace to you brother

Keep seeking God's wisdom as if it were hidden treasure

[enoob57]

I find this quite affirming toward all this

John 20:22 (KJV)

[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

I certainly don't think there is enough for dogmatism on any of this!