Don't Tell Me, Show Me

[RdJ]

53 minutes ago, farouk said:

@Renskedejonge Languages are so useful to learn well. (Often ppl in English-speaking countries don't bother to learn other languages but wait for others to learn English.) I think the Dutch tend to be good linguists; wishing has a lot to do with it also. I think in The Netherlands, a lot of ppl wish to speak English; German they are often less keen to learn; and French is claimed to be more difficult for them.

(But in Belgium, Flemings will often speak French well - even though they might say they don't want to.....)

And so it goes...........

Yes they can speak French. German and English is similar to Dutch and not hard to learn, but French is way more complicated. We got that in school too, but I hardly speak any French. We once went to France and tried to speak English, but then they don't answer, except when you tip good lol.

[farouk]

15 minutes ago, Renskedejonge said:

Yes they can speak French. German and English is similar to Dutch and not hard to learn, but French is way more complicated. We got that in school too, but I hardly speak any French. We once went to France and tried to speak English, but then they don't answer, except when you tip good lol.

@Renskedejonge Well....French is Latin-based............whereas Dutch, English and German are all Germanic............

[tim_from_pa]

On 11/8/2023 at 12:09 PM, Starise said:

In the Gospel of John, Thomas famously doubted Jesus' resurrection, telling the other disciples, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe” (John 20:25). Jesus then appeared and offered to let him do just that.

After Jesus proved to Thomas his claims were indeed true, He went on to say-

29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

I thought it might be interesting to unpack this.

Several things stood out to me in these verses. 

- Thomas had his mind made up , Unless I see, I WILL NOT BELIEVE.

- Thomas wasn't an outer circle person. He was one of the disciples.

My thoughts based on these key points. 

Jesus could have refused to show Thomas the nail holes. What then? Jesus complied with a demand and not a request. He could have said, "Thomas, if you don't believe that's your problem."  This seems to indicate some need a little more to be convinced. Thomas showed a lack of faith, especially being a disciple and hanging with Jesus for a pretty extended amount of time, one would think all the miracles Jesus did would have solidified trust. I mean, even the resurrection of Lazarus didn't do it? 

 One thing I have found that should have been obvious. If we ask, it means we think we can get an answer and if we have that much faith it's enough. For instance asking God to do something out of the ordinary in our world considered to be supernatural. If we have enough faith to believe he can do that, we ask, therefore He has no need to actually do it because you've shown you have the faith in the asking, if the point of the exchange is to prove something about God. These are little niggles when looking around us shows the handiwork of God.

Making these requests, or demands of God makes belief in God conditional.  God if you do this or that I might believe, yet does our unbelief ever change what God is and what God is capable of? Thomas was not a believing asker, he was an unbelieving asker. If this condition is not met, then my condition will not change.

Is God required to meet our personal conditions in order to believe in Him , or are we required to believe in Him based on pre existing conditions? I believe there is a reciprocation here in God's evidence and our willingness to see it. It all works, but we sometimes try and add things to it.

Why did God comply with this pushy request? Possibly because He didn't see the request as unreasonable. He could have healed Himself, but chose to sport the scars, maybe for this very reason.

What about all of those the Lord says are blessed when we haven't seen? Why do we believe?  Well for me, either the Lord rose from the dead or He didn't, and I have no reason, after years of study, to ever think otherwise. If people wish to find the "right " god just do some homework and stop preaching we are all brainwashed idiots. My God is big enough to give you enough faith to believe in Him.

Seems to me that Thomas did not doubt any more than the others - it's just that he was adamant on wanting proof. Nevertheless Thomas was with the same on the Day of Pentecost.  It's impossible in the flesh to believe and understand spiritual things until the Holy Spirit came as foreshadowed in the feast of weeks (Leviticus 23).  After all, Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will help them remember all that he said, thus enabling them to see spiritually.  Had Jesus not accommodated Thomas for this one instance, who would have gathered?  Faith is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22).  This is just my opinion, but the reason Jesus appeared to so many would be to instill enough faith to thus later receive the Holy Spirit.  In addition, with something like 500 eyewitnesses to His resurrection, it also is a historic testimony that he was seen and this is not just a made-up story of fanciful Bible writers.  

[Starise]

1 hour ago, tim_from_pa said:

Seems to me that Thomas did not doubt any more than the others - it's just that he was adamant on wanting proof. Nevertheless Thomas was with the same on the Day of Pentecost.  It's impossible in the flesh to believe and understand spiritual things until the Holy Spirit came as foreshadowed in the feast of weeks (Leviticus 23).  After all, Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will help them remember all that he said, thus enabling them to see spiritually.  Had Jesus not accommodated Thomas for this one instance, who would have gathered?  Faith is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22).  This is just my opinion, but the reason Jesus appeared to so many would be to instill enough faith to thus later receive the Holy Spirit.  In addition, with something like 500 eyewitnesses to His resurrection, it also is a historic testimony that he was seen and this is not just a made-up story of fanciful Bible writers.  

Yes I think Thomas was an honest doubter, in that he was willing to believe. We have so many today who are dishonest doubters because they claim they will believe if they see, when in reality they have no intention to ever believe.

[RdJ]

2 hours ago, Starise said:

Yes I think Thomas was an honest doubter, in that he was willing to believe. We have so many today who are dishonest doubters because they claim they will believe if they see, when in reality they have no intention to ever believe.

Lol I always said to them: if I grow out a finger I'll call you first. It's never good enough for em.

[AnOrangeCat]

On 11/8/2023 at 11:09 AM, Starise said:

Why did God comply with this pushy request? Possibly because He didn't see the request as unreasonable. He could have healed Himself, but chose to sport the scars, maybe for this very reason.

I think this is probably a part of it. The Bible places a lot of emphasis on faith, to the point of saying it's impossible to please God without it. With this event with Thomas we're given a reminder on the importance of faith, but we're also shown that it's not the end if we have our doubts. As something recorded in the Bible that interaction probably wasn't just for Thomas, but also for all of us who have come ever since Thomas.

Another interesting thing in relation to this is the story of the beggar Lazarus. The rich man wanted Lazarus to come back to life and warn his family, but the response was "No, they don't believe Moses and the prophets. They won't believe a dead man come back to life either." That's a strong statement there. The contrast tells me that God knows our hearts and that some people wouldn't believe or would be willingly defiant even if Jesus were staring them in the face.

[Starise]

3 hours ago, AnOrangeCat said:

With this event with Thomas we're given a reminder on the importance of faith, but we're also shown that it's not the end if we have our doubts.

I like the way you put this. It's not the end. For the saved, our salvation is not dependent on our occasional doubts if we have them.

3 hours ago, AnOrangeCat said:

Another interesting thing in relation to this is the story of the beggar Lazarus. The rich man wanted Lazarus to come back to life and warn his family, but the response was "No, they don't believe Moses and the prophets. They won't believe a dead man come back to life either." That's a strong statement there. The contrast tells me that God knows our hearts and that some people wouldn't believe or would be willingly defiant even if Jesus were staring them in the face.

There are certainly some very defiant people out there. Saul thought he was doing the right thing, but was really "kicking against the pricks", no those aren't people *ahem* , but the proddings of the Lord who decided to pay him a personal visit.

[Dennis1209]

On 11/8/2023 at 11:09 AM, Starise said:

In the Gospel of John, Thomas famously doubted Jesus' resurrection, telling the other disciples, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe” (John 20:25). Jesus then appeared and offered to let him do just that.

After Jesus proved to Thomas his claims were indeed true, He went on to say-

29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

I thought it might be interesting to unpack this.

Several things stood out to me in these verses. 

- Thomas had his mind made up , Unless I see, I WILL NOT BELIEVE.

- Thomas wasn't an outer circle person. He was one of the disciples.

My thoughts based on these key points. 

Jesus could have refused to show Thomas the nail holes. What then? Jesus complied with a demand and not a request. He could have said, "Thomas, if you don't believe that's your problem."  This seems to indicate some need a little more to be convinced. Thomas showed a lack of faith, especially being a disciple and hanging with Jesus for a pretty extended amount of time, one would think all the miracles Jesus did would have solidified trust. I mean, even the resurrection of Lazarus didn't do it? 

 One thing I have found that should have been obvious. If we ask, it means we think we can get an answer and if we have that much faith it's enough. For instance asking God to do something out of the ordinary in our world considered to be supernatural. If we have enough faith to believe he can do that, we ask, therefore He has no need to actually do it because you've shown you have the faith in the asking, if the point of the exchange is to prove something about God. These are little niggles when looking around us shows the handiwork of God.

Making these requests, or demands of God makes belief in God conditional.  God if you do this or that I might believe, yet does our unbelief ever change what God is and what God is capable of? Thomas was not a believing asker, he was an unbelieving asker. If this condition is not met, then my condition will not change.

Is God required to meet our personal conditions in order to believe in Him , or are we required to believe in Him based on pre existing conditions? I believe there is a reciprocation here in God's evidence and our willingness to see it. It all works, but we sometimes try and add things to it.

Why did God comply with this pushy request? Possibly because He didn't see the request as unreasonable. He could have healed Himself, but chose to sport the scars, maybe for this very reason.

What about all of those the Lord says are blessed when we haven't seen? Why do we believe?  Well for me, either the Lord rose from the dead or He didn't, and I have no reason, after years of study, to ever think otherwise. If people wish to find the "right " god just do some homework and stop preaching we are all brainwashed idiots. My God is big enough to give you enough faith to believe in Him.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

I, too, have wondered about doubting Thomas and his faith, as well as Peter’s thrice denials. Jesus used an “inner ring” of disciples, Peter, James, and John as witnesses, for what reason I do not know.

How much were Thomas and the other disciples allowed to witness? They were not allowed to witness Jesus raising Lazarus, the transfiguration, etc.

[Starise]

5 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

I, too, have wondered about doubting Thomas and his faith, as well as Peter’s thrice denials. Jesus used an “inner ring” of disciples, Peter, James, and John as witnesses, for what reason I do not know.

How much were Thomas and the other disciples allowed to witness? They were not allowed to witness Jesus raising Lazarus, the transfiguration, etc.

Faith has a special connotation with God. Faith in ANYTHING else has  different connotations. Faith not being physically quantifyable is tough to describe to someone who doesn't have it. I think we tend to see faith as a collective term for anything and everything when it is discussed which does it a disservice as it is compared to God.

We have REASON to have faith in God. A lost man needs to have faith to come to Christ. Therefore at the time he decides to have this faith he isn't a believer and can claim no power other than his will. Lost men will never have that faith unless something of a supernatural nature spurns it. God does the drawing, men do the coming. God set up the sequence to cause that man or woman to come to Him and facilitated the conditions to make it apparent to them. In the case of Thomas, Jesus was willing to go that extra step.

The demands of Thomas were valid and fair, however I think some demands can be unreasonable and therefore not granted. If Thomas had wanted to see the Lord fly, or walk through a wall would He have complied? Maybe. It's up to Him. He sees our hearts and He knows if a request will be effective. God is not a gumball machine. He has ways and limits and, after all, He IS GOD.

He has already set conditions here in such a way as to make it unavoidable that we have intelligent design, and He has made a way to contact him personally and have communion with Him, so anything else is a favor for a friend and above and beyond to the extreme.

[Neighbor]

 

"We have REASON to have faith in God. A lost man needs to have faith to come to Christ."

 

And yet.... I was personally turned about to seeing Yeshua is God without any faith on my part whatsoever.

 I have been turned about to seeing the Lordship of Yeshua for some 43 years now.  Seems to me God must be in charge, totally sovereign over all matters, all!

I did say,  after I was confronted by an angel and then sat down to think that confrontation over also having  turned on the tv  hearing a terrible gospel presentation by a TV preacher, "if that is true I want it". And that was that.

Faith? I don't know my own experience doesn't in my mind's comprehension equate to my having faith first. I do live by faith yes. I do, but it is  in my way of thinking not  my faith that I trust in,  but instead is Jesus' faith. His faith never fails me.