Horns On Heads Of Beasts

[Triton57]

On 2/4/2025 at 10:04 PM, Charlie744 said:

The event in verse 34 represents the cross and defines whether the verses and their interpretations apply to the three previous kingdoms or the fourth and final kingdom of Rome (pagan or Papal). The four-sectioned image continues, but there is a significant change within the fourth kingdom. Pagan Rome, with legs of iron and feet of iron and clay, in that order, as well as the toes, will exist at the time of the Messiah and after the cross. Later, the fourth kingdom, in the form of Papal Rome, made of partly clay and partly iron, in that order, would continue for another 2000 years or so, both spiritually and physically.

The interpretation of the iron and clay is for a specific purpose of distinction we haven't gotten to yet, but since you mention it here I think it's an important distinction that doesn't speak to the kind of detail you are assigning it, ie: Papal Rome. The fourth kingdom begins with legs of iron and ends with feet and toes of iron and clay, both elements of the fourth kingdom I think we agree.

Daniel 2:40-43
"And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all [things]: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."

This fourth kingdom (iron and clay) is partly strong like the iron, and partly broken like the clay. The reason for this is that "they," related to the kingdom, mingle themselves with the seed of men. But this "mingling" does not strengthen because it represents the iron and clay mixture that does not cleave together. Since the only connection to these metals is a kingdom, and the only further representation is that Nebuchadnezzar is the head of gold, I don’t feel it's much of a leap to say that the "they" in regards to the kingdoms is referring to the leaders of the kingdoms.

Now the word "mingle" is only used in this vision in scripture and in conjunction with "seed," which is also only used here and means to comingle with the offspring of men. I like Chris White's study on this in his book Daniel (A Commentary). He goes into some detail on this in chapter 2 that I won't post here, but there were several attempts of royal intermarriage meant to save the collapsing Western Roman Empire.

The image only goes to Rome, and the Roman Empire that ruled Jerusalem at the time of Christ's first coming is no longer an earthly kingdom. The image does not represent a spiritual kingdom and the iron and clay exist together as part of the image and are also together struck at the time the stone's kingdom is established, and are found no more. The iron was strong, but then part of the kingdom became weak, something we saw happen in history when the capital of Rome was moved to Constantinople and the Western Roman Empire responsible for the elimination of Israel as a nation collapsed shortly after it fulfilled Yeshua's prophecy of her destruction.

The only perceived remnant of Rome ruling over anything might be considered by some to be the Roman Catholic Church. However, the fact that the Roman Empire took ownership of a structured version of Christianity and then ceased to be a kingdom ruling politically does not in my mind mean that Rome still exists as an earthly kingdom in any form. All the elements of the statue were tied to earthly rulers and the stone was distinguished in that it was a spiritual kingdom not of this world and superior.

A spiritual kingdom of obedient followers of Christ exists within a denomination that also contains imposters, just like Baptist churches and non-denominational churches, and every other church does. But those that are faithful within them represent the mountain that is filling the whole earth, not the political kingdom that rules over earthly kingdoms IMO.

With the children of Israel seen as the clay in the statue representing Pagan Rome doesn't fit with the other metals that were not mingled with clay though they all involved Israel. And Israel didn't weaken Rome, they fell under the iron rod of Rome and were scattered while the Roman Empire lived on for several centuries. I just don't see any perspective that can extend any remnant of the image to today let alone Christ's second coming. And I think Daniel 2 stands on its own Biblically and historically, fitting into the prophetic narrative without having to be shoehorned into other prophecies. Not all prophecies tie together directly, but they all tie into history and the future in their respective points.

[Triton57]

On 2/4/2025 at 10:04 PM, Charlie744 said:

In verse 33, the feet are composed partly of iron and partly of clay, in that order. These two materials, although not properly joined together, are not separate in the image. In verse 34, the stone strikes the feet and breaks them into pieces. There are two important points here: After the stone strikes the image, there are now five separate materials, and the iron and clay are no longer mixed together. The purpose of the stone striking the image's feet was to separate or divide the iron from the clay, allowing God to select the potter’s clay from the common clay (later defined as ceramic clay). The striking of the feet divides the fourth and final kingdom, not destroy or crush it or the other kingdoms out of existence. Jesus came to divide, not to destroy. The materials—their make-up and order—are different before and after the cross. The verses in the interpretation sequence speak almost exclusively to events after the cross and before His second coming.

I can see where the idea of separation leads to the idea of the wheat and tares separation at the harvest at the end of the age. However, the "stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces" is interpreted for us as "the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed."

Luke 17:20-21
"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

The bride of Christ, the faithful and obedient church, are representing the kingdom of God as faithful imagers of Christ in the world. It's an already but not yet prophecy as the kingdom will not be in its fullness until the King rules from Jerusalem.

Colossians 1:25-29
"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily."

The harvest is now and we are the laborers, meant to grow the kingdom of God until His coming when He will bring and end to the church age when He calls us home.

[Triton57]

On 2/4/2025 at 10:04 PM, Charlie744 said:

Once the iron and clay in the feet are broken apart, God uses those separated materials as He predestined. The stone (Messiah) that strikes the feet completes His mission, fulfilling all His Father’s commands found in Daniel 9:24, and divides the fourth and final kingdom, revealing His plan of salvation for both Jew and Gentile. Verse 34 also represents God’s setting up His kingdom on earth spiritually, not physically.

I agree that Yeshua has more to do, and indeed His mission is not fully complete. At the same time, the context of the vision is the elimination of the kingdoms of the world and consumption of their control into the kingdom of God, which was only made possible by the mission of His first coming in establishing that kingdom.

John 19:30
"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

James 1:15
"Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."

2 Corinthians 5:20-21
"Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

I see this as an already but not yet prophecy, which it seems we're not far apart on except that the destruction of the image for you is yet future and for me it's history. We both agree it began at His first coming, it's just the interpretation of the image and how long it's sticking around.

I don't think the mountain filling the whole earth will be fully complete until the Messianic Kingdom, but it is growing through time. I do think that the image in its entirety was destroyed and consumed with the death of the Western Roman Empire because of the wording of the prophecy, historical record, and Israel no longer existing after Rome destroyed her. Yeshua is the center of prophecy as is His plan to restore His relationship with His people who are blinded to Him.

[Triton57]

On 2/4/2025 at 10:04 PM, Charlie744 said:

The final comment of the dream sequence refers to verse 33. Daniel mentions that the feet of the metal-man image are made of partly iron and partly clay, in that order. However, there is no mention of the toes. The toes will be discussed in the interpretation sequence, but they are purposefully left out of the dream sequence description.

To Nebuchadnezzar, it may have seemed that the iron and clay had encased or largely covered any sign of individual toes, symbolizing pagan Rome's control over the internal structure and make-up of the feet and toes. Pagan Rome exercised complete control over every aspect of its conquered nations.

The dream sequence didn't provide Nebuchadnezzar with details other than identifying four kingdoms, a stone striking the image's feet, and the stone becoming a great mountain. Without Daniel’s interpretation sequence, generating any meaningful interpretations or prophetic messages would be impossible. Daniel's interpretations, found in verses 37-45, require careful placement within the dream sequence. The timing of the stone striking the feet is crucial. Determining when or where the interpretation sequence verses should be placed, either before or after the cross, depends on understanding verses 34 and 35 correctly.

I don’t feel we should take the first mention of the explanation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream without the interpretation of it, they are part of the same narrative, none of which Nebuchadnezzar could remember. So Daniel saying feet and then 9 sentences later saying feet and toes isn't something I would call a distinction personally.

The symbology of the legs of iron and feet of iron and clay being the last kingdom where the stone strikes and destroys it is interpreted with the establishment of the kingdom of God. It breaks all the kingdoms and consumes them, and Rome ceased to be a kingdom shortly after His first coming while the kingdom of God spiritually transformed the hearts and minds of those in all earthly kingdoms as I see it.

I know you say He broke apart and did not destroy, so the image is around after the cross, which I agree with. It's pretty clear that the statue breaking apart is only the start of the process. However, I consider verse 35 stating "the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them" to be analogous to the kingdom no longer existing, just as chaff is blown away and found no more.

You say the clay represents the Jews in Pagan Rome at the time of His first coming, being subjugated and controlled. Wouldn't it then follow that the elimination of the Roman Empire, Pagan Rome, as a controlling and subjugating force would be the release of the clay? When did Rome fall? Whether the Western Roman Empire around 476 AD or the Byzantine Empire around 1453 AD, it was at least 500+ years ago, which is objectively not the end times given all that must take place and the Messianic Kingdom that has not yet come.

And as I understand your view, Pagan Rome became Papal Rome and through both transitions the Jews represent the clay. So in your view the political Pagan Rome didn't mix with Israel and later as we saw through history, Papal Rome and the Jews fell into the same inability to cleave?

[Triton57]

On 2/4/2025 at 10:04 PM, Charlie744 said:

The interpretation sequence

Daniel 2:37–39

³⁷Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. ³⁸And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.³⁹And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

In verses 37–45, Daniel provides Nebuchadnezzar with the interpretation of the dream. Verses 37 to 39 cover the first three kingdoms, while verses 40 to 45 address the fourth and final kingdom of Rome. Unlike the dream sequence, which presents each of the four kingdoms equally, the interpretation sequence speaks of them in different ways, focusing on their unique roles within God’s plan of salvation. The dream sequence outlines the characteristics and boundaries of each kingdom, while the interpretation sequence explains how and why God would use those characteristics, features, and abilities in His plan. These interpretations are deeper and not immediately obvious.

Daniel reveals individual characteristics and facts for each kingdom. The first kingdom is especially relevant to Nebuchadnezzar, with the interpretation

highlighting several impressive gifts and blessings bestowed upon him. However, there is only one verse (39) that briefly mentions the two inner kingdoms represented by silver and bronze, covering both of their interpretations. The fourth kingdom is treated more extensively. Daniel provides prophetic information in no less than six verses (40–45), which require a deep and careful exploration to understand their meanings. These interpretations include details about the iron legs of the fourth kingdom, the iron and clay feet and toes, and the stone striking the feet, breaking them into pieces.

Although more than 2,500 years have passed since God revealed His interpretations to Daniel, there is still no consensus on many of the prophetic messages within the twelve chapters of Daniel. This makes it crucial to recognize the importance of the Chapter 2 metal-man image and all the characteristics, constraints, boundaries, restrictions, and timing embedded within these symbols. These elements serve as His "blueprints" for all twelve chapters.

Daniel’s interpretations of the first kingdom identify its king as Nebuchadnezzar. The king of the second kingdom is not mentioned in Chapter 2 but was identified by name almost 150 years earlier in the Book of Isaiah. The king of the third kingdom, Alexander, is described (though not by name) by Gabriel in Chapter 8. In the dream sequence, Daniel identifies all four metal types along with the stone that would strike the image. However, the metal type for the second kingdom is not mentioned in Daniel’s interpretation sequence.

The head of gold represented the first of the four kingdoms mentioned in Daniel's interpretation. Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that this referred to his reign. It is no coincidence that Daniel’s interpretations of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar) were associated with the senses found in one’s head: the mind, ears, mouth, and eyes. This aligns with Nebuchadnezzar's strengths and how he ruled his kingdom and conducted his life. Every comment within verses 37 and 38 was tailored to Nebuchadnezzar’s personal receptors—he could almost see, hear, and taste the power and glory of Daniel’s words. They seemed to validate the strength of his mental and intellectual abilities. These compliments from Daniel’s God were likely music to his ears, and he may have focused primarily on those favorable words. However, it is notable that Daniel’s interpretations do not include anything related to the heart of Nebuchadnezzar.

There is no mention of his compassion, empathy, or consideration for others. This aspect of his character would later influence his ability or inability to recognize and accept Daniel’s God as his own.

Nebuchadnezzar was told he was the king of kings and had received his kingdom, power, strength, and glory from God above. He was to rule over the children of men, the beasts, and the birds of the world, as prophesied in Jeremiah 28:14: "For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: I have put a yoke of iron upon the neck of all these nations, that they may serve Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; and they shall serve him; and I have given him the beasts of the field.” This must have been pleasing to his ears, reinforcing what he already knew about his power, title, and accomplishments. However, the most crucial part of Daniel's message was that the God of heaven had given him everything. These were not merely the fruits of his own works but gifts from God. Nebuchadnezzar struggled to recognize his role in God’s plan of salvation for the Jews. It would take a special visit from Daniel’s God in Chapter 4 for him to fully realize who had granted him everything.

Despite this, Nebuchadnezzar was placed as the king of the most powerful kingdom at that time for a special purpose—not only for God to bring correction to His people but also to receive and protect them during their captivity. Babylon’s impenetrable defenses, with its multiple walls and towers, symbolized how God would keep His people safe during their seventy years in exile. Daniel, his three friends, and all the Jews in Babylon were never in jeopardy from outside forces. Through Nebuchadnezzar, God would also reveal His power, wisdom, might, and glory.

God had bestowed upon Nebuchadnezzar all the gifts necessary to fulfill his role in His plan for Daniel and His people, providing him with ample opportunities to learn about and accept Daniel’s God. God visited Nebuchadnezzar in his dreams, but he struggled to fully comprehend Him. God revealed Himself in the furnace, but Nebuchadnezzar did not fully acknowledge or reach out to Him. God spoke to him through Daniel, but Nebuchadnezzar did not fully listen or obey. At each encounter, where Nebuchadnezzar was most comfortable, God met him, but each time He was not fully accepted.

Babylon is one of two kingdoms in which Daniel identifies its king within the dream or interpretation sequences in Chapter 2.

Although the second king is revealed symbolically as a stone that strikes the metal man image at its feet, both kings are acknowledged as having their position and authority granted by God. Both are referred to as "kings of kings" within their respective kingdoms, and both receive their power, strength, and glory from the God of heaven. While both were considered human and divine, only Jesus (the stone) could truly embody this sovereignty. It would have been challenging to convince Nebuchadnezzar that he was not divine, or at least as close as anyone could be.

Despite these many similarities, their reigns would result in very different outcomes. One king would be humble, the other prideful. One would be harsh and punishing, while the other would be gentle and accept punishment on behalf of others. One would take credit for all his achievements, while the other would be obedient, worship the Creator, and give all glory to His Father. One would desire to rule the world and live forever, while the other would be willing to sacrifice His life so that others could live eternally. There are numerous parallels, yet the outcomes of their reigns would be markedly different.

Though the kings of the silver and bronze kingdoms remain unnamed in Daniel’s Chapter 2 interpretation sequence, their existence is acknowledged in other prophetic writings. In verse 39, Daniel informs Nebuchadnezzar that another kingdom will follow his, but it will be inferior. Daniel offers only these few words regarding the second kingdom. There is no elaborate praise, acknowledgment of accomplishments, or impressive characteristics attributed to this kingdom as with the first. Daniel does not mention or allude to the type of metal representing this kingdom or the identity of its king. He simply informs Nebuchadnezzar that a second, inferior kingdom will arise.

In the same verse (39), Daniel informs Nebuchadnezzar of the coming of a third kingdom that will dominate the earth. Once again, the king’s identity remains unspecified, but unlike the second kingdom, Daniel does provide the type of metal associated with this third kingdom—it will be of bronze or brass. However, Daniel’s interpretation is brief, mentioning only that this kingdom will exercise dominion over the earth. Because he discloses the type of metal, it suggests that this dominion will be achieved through military strength.

In Daniel's interpretation sequence for the second kingdom, there is no mention of Cyrus, the Persian kingdom, or the silver metal.

However, Cyrus is specifically identified in the Book of Isaiah, where it is prophesied that he would issue a decree allowing the Jews to return to Jerusalem. This prophecy was written long before the birth of either Daniel or Cyrus, during a time when the rise of the Persian Empire was not yet evident. If Daniel were written at a later date, as some suggest (in the second century BC) by an unidentified author, it would be reasonable to expect mention of Cyrus's name and the Medes-Persian kingdom in Chapter 2's interpretation sequence. It seems improbable that a later author would provide such scant attention to these kingdoms, especially considering the wealth of historical documentation available for the preceding 200 years or so.

While Cyrus may not have achieved conquests on the scale of Nebuchadnezzar or undertaken grand construction projects like those in Babylon, he was a formidable military leader who expanded his kingdom and accomplished much in non-military endeavors. Even if a writer from the second century BC omitted mention of Cyrus's well-documented achievements, they could have easily incorporated details about the military exploits and achievements of other significant Persian rulers. In Daniel's depiction of the second kingdom, Xerxes would be the final Persian ruler to ascend the throne, offering ample material for discussion regarding historical events, wars, and conflicts.

When interpreting the Book of Daniel, it's essential to understand that these verses should not be approached as a mere recounting of historical events. Rather, they are intended to convey prophetic messages from God. He has included everything necessary within the Tanakh and the Book of Daniel for His people to read, study, and interpret these prophecies. Thus, His Word, including these prophecies, is complete in all respects prior to His coming in the early first century. The Jews had everything they needed in the finished Tanakh before His arrival, and there were no asterisks added to suggest that these prophecies needed verification through historical records.

Concerning the first kingdom, God revealed all the essential resources, characteristics, and blessings required for the king and kingdom to fulfill God’s mission concerning the Jews. Nebuchadnezzar, serving as the mighty hand of God, removed the Assyrians from the earth. In relative terms, he provided Daniel and the Jews with a secure haven while they endured God’s punishment for the next seventy years.

However, when it comes to the second kingdom, God does not specify any blessings or gifts bestowed upon them. The particular mission of the second kingdom would be to bring an end to the Jews’ captivity in Babylon by permitting their return to Jerusalem. But achieving such an outcome might require more than a simple alignment of circumstances. The Jews were held in a foreign land for seventy years, likely with their identity unknown to any other nation outside the walls of Babylon. Even if the Medes-Persians were aware of them, they wouldn't have held any significance, as conquerors viewed people as mere possessions, regardless of their origin. While Cyrus commanded a considerable and formidable army, it would be unreasonable to expect Babylon, perhaps the most powerful force in the world, ensconced behind the most impregnable fortifications ever constructed, to fall without resistance. Typically, such a conquest would entail a prolonged and successful military campaign. However, Babylon's downfall would not be brought about by sheer military force, hence there was no mention of a specific type of metal (silver) in Daniel’s interpretation of the second kingdom.

The other aspect mentioned in the interpretation sequence for the second kingdom was its inferiority compared to Babylon. This is indeed an unusual characterization for a nation poised to conquer such a formidable kingdom, sheltered behind seemingly impregnable defenses. When we delve into God’s Word, the unmistakable author is none other than Daniel’s God. For the second kingdom, God's mission did not necessitate the attributes of the first kingdom, nor did it require a destructive and protracted war resulting in widespread devastation. Instead, God orchestrated events to install Cyrus into power, who would facilitate the return of His people to Jerusalem. This was accomplished through Daniel revealing Cyrus's name in Scripture, written over 150 years prior. Upon seeing his name in the Jewish Scriptures, Cyrus recognized Daniel’s God as the supreme deity and felt compelled to issue a decree allowing the Jews to return to Jerusalem. God purposefully omitted Cyrus's name from the interpretations given to Nebuchadnezzar, choosing instead to conceal it in plain sight within His Scriptures, notably in Isaiah 44 and 45.

Had Daniel disclosed Cyrus's name to Nebuchadnezzar, it's conceivable that Nebuchadnezzar would have perceived Cyrus as a threat to his reign and taken measures to thwart him.

But God had further plans for the second kingdom, orchestrating events that could only stem from His divine wisdom. The statement in the interpretation sequence indicating the second kingdom's inferiority serves a specific purpose. It foreshadows the transition of power to Darius, who would succeed Belshazzar as king of Babylon. While modern historians and post-Alexander era historicists may harbor doubts about Darius's existence, according to Daniel, Cyrus would indeed transfer rulership to Darius immediately after Babylon's conquest. Darius's rule over the inferior portion of the Medes-Persian Empire fulfills God’s prophecy. He predicted Cyrus's ascendancy to power before Daniel's birth and foretold that the kingdom conquering Babylon would be "inferior." The Medes, constituting the lesser part of the Medes-Persian kingdom, fulfill this aspect of the prophecy, reconciling what may seem like conflicting predictions.

Despite all of God's interventions, Nebuchadnezzar remained resistant to a personal relationship with Him or acknowledgment of Him as his Lord and Savior, until his period of punishment during the seven days of living as an animal. Nebuchadnezzar possessed everything he desired but lacked what he truly needed. His aspirations for eternal life and reign left him indifferent to Daniel’s God or any deity. Yet, God would not permit him to obstruct the mission He had ordained long ago for Cyrus, Darius, and the second kingdom.

We can discern God's design for the second kingdom and understand why Daniel did not specify the type of metal in the interpretation sequence. Silver, being unsuitable for military purposes, did not align with the manner in which Babylon would be conquered. Instead, God utilized the symbolic body parts associated with the second kingdom in His plan for the Jews. Whether considering the two arms of the metal-man image in Chapter 2 or the powerful arms depicted in the symbolic bear of Chapter 8, God employed these symbolic parts of a man and a bear that would receive the Jews from captivity in Babylon and facilitate their journey to Jerusalem. Thus, the plan for the second kingdom avoided physical force, relying instead on the imagery of two arms to orchestrate the return of the Jews. The names of both Darius and Cyrus were withheld from Nebuchadnezzar; one would only be revealed posthumously in the future, while the other remained concealed within the Scriptures some 150 years before his birth.

That's an interesting perspective on Nebuchadnezzar's perception, I hadn't really thought that deeply about it and I like your thoughts on this. I also had not made any connection between the head of gold and the stone as kings, interesting.

It's interesting how the metals in terms of mineral hardness go from iron to brass to silver to gold, iron being the hardest. Yet Nebuchadnezzar's told that the silver kingdom that follows his head of gold is inferior to his. In terms of general perceived value, the metals also go opposite of their hardness. And of course we know iron is used to associate with breaking in pieces and being strong, as Yeshua rules with a rod of iron as well.

Aside from the value of the metals, I've wondered what about the kingdoms would make the stronger more inferior and I can't say I know enough of history to come to a conclusion other than the idea that the more malleable the metal, the more superior and the more hard the more oppressive the rule. While Nebuchadnezzar had the pride of a king, he also was humbled before God and recognized His superiority in Daniel 4. The further along through time it seems this wasn't the case.

You mentioned also that the Jews had everything they needed to understand and I would agree. I think this also points to the central nature of Israel to the vision. It was the head of gold's domination of Israel that brought Daniel and Israel into captivity. The sequence of kingdoms that followed were to be understood in relation to Israel. Now her placement in the land tended to make her the center of many conflicts, but they weren't to expect the transition of power in some far off land to be the transition of the metals with the changes in the kingdoms, it was always involving Israel. The same thing happens with the heads of the Dragon John sees in his visions. I think this is also why the image in Nebuchadnezzar's vision ends with the Roman Empire that destroyed Israel and flung her people into the diaspora. There was no Israel for the kingdoms of the world to interact with anymore, not until 1948 was that the case again.

And when getting into the gap between the first 69 and 70th week, I think the same principle is seen. The start of the week was tied to Ezra's return to Jerusalem to teach the statues so that proper temple ministry according to those statutes could once again continue and ended 483 years later at the beginning of the ministry of Christ. Then, upon His rejection, destruction was determined and for 40 years after 30 AD, the temple was not the same with all sorts of strange occurrences until its destruction. Once again, there was no Israel to count weeks for. And the Israel of modern times is not following the statutes of God given to them at Sinai and it isn't until that begins again that the 70th week of Daniel will begin.

If I have anything wrong in my understanding of your view, please let me know where I'm wrong.

[Charlie744]

14 hours ago, Triton57 said:

That's an interesting perspective on Nebuchadnezzar's perception, I hadn't really thought that deeply about it and I like your thoughts on this. I also had not made any connection between the head of gold and the stone as kings, interesting.

It's interesting how the metals in terms of mineral hardness go from iron to brass to silver to gold, iron being the hardest. Yet Nebuchadnezzar's told that the silver kingdom that follows his head of gold is inferior to his. In terms of general perceived value, the metals also go opposite of their hardness. And of course we know iron is used to associate with breaking in pieces and being strong, as Yeshua rules with a rod of iron as well.

Aside from the value of the metals, I've wondered what about the kingdoms would make the stronger more inferior and I can't say I know enough of history to come to a conclusion other than the idea that the more malleable the metal, the more superior and the more hard the more oppressive the rule. While Nebuchadnezzar had the pride of a king, he also was humbled before God and recognized His superiority in Daniel 4. The further along through time it seems this wasn't the case.

You mentioned also that the Jews had everything they needed to understand and I would agree. I think this also points to the central nature of Israel to the vision. It was the head of gold's domination of Israel that brought Daniel and Israel into captivity. The sequence of kingdoms that followed were to be understood in relation to Israel. Now her placement in the land tended to make her the center of many conflicts, but they weren't to expect the transition of power in some far off land to be the transition of the metals with the changes in the kingdoms, it was always involving Israel. The same thing happens with the heads of the Dragon John sees in his visions. I think this is also why the image in Nebuchadnezzar's vision ends with the Roman Empire that destroyed Israel and flung her people into the diaspora. There was no Israel for the kingdoms of the world to interact with anymore, not until 1948 was that the case again.

And when getting into the gap between the first 69 and 70th week, I think the same principle is seen. The start of the week was tied to Ezra's return to Jerusalem to teach the statues so that proper temple ministry according to those statutes could once again continue and ended 483 years later at the beginning of the ministry of Christ. Then, upon His rejection, destruction was determined and for 40 years after 30 AD, the temple was not the same with all sorts of strange occurrences until its destruction. Once again, there was no Israel to count weeks for. And the Israel of modern times is not following the statutes of God given to them at Sinai and it isn't until that begins again that the 70th week of Daniel will begin.

If I have anything wrong in my understanding of your view, please let me know where I'm wrong.

That was one heck of a terrific response! Thank you for taking the time and consideration you obviously spent on it.

 

I will have to spend some time responding to this - hopefully this evening, but for now, I would simply ask that you might continue to keep an open mind regarding 2:34 as it relates to the Messiah’s first coming and 2:35 is His second coming. 
 

If you consider JUST the verses in the “Dream sequence” you might agree they present God’s plan from Babylon to His return. This is the big picture for all of the 12 chapters. Everything within Daniel AFTER this very brief and compacted summary will be found within these brief verses. So, we have the beginning time bracket at Babylon at 606 BC, and the ending time bracket at (soon) - 2:35.  
 

Therefore, ALL actors and events found within the prophecies in Daniel are within these 2 time brackets. The most important event and actor in OUR HISTORY is of course Jesus. And His first coming did not come as the Jews expected- a conquering king who would save His people and destroy the Romans- He did not come to destroy but to divide. Thus, His people - symbolically presented as “Clay” subjugated within the feet of the Roman Empire would not be a military like event. He did come to save His people but in a very different way! 
 

Symbolically, He would strike the feet (only) and break apart (not destroy) the image (especially it is noted that pagan Rome continued for another 450 years or so. 
 

But this separation or breaking apart the two elements (this is also important because it would have said the entire feet or the entire image, etc., if 2:34 was meant to mean total destruction of the 4 kingdoms), into pieces. Why focus on these 2 elements only if the entire image is being destroyed? It is not meant to convey that although EVERYONE believes this. 
 

Only these 2 elements found only in the 4th kingdom were struck for the only purpose of symbolically separating His people from the Roman Empire. And of course this did not mean that this “striking” would destroy either of the two elements or the total image or the Jews as a people.

What it did accomplish is to separate those pieces of clay (pottery clay) that would accept Him as their Messiah and preach the Good News to the Gentiles while those Jews who rejected Him (ceramic clay) - they would continue in their pre-cross faith. 
 

Later, we can discuss verses 2:41-45, which are only relevant to the cross- a before and after picture if you will. These 5 verses were unbelievably difficult to understand and they could only be interpreted with 2:34 representing the cross. 
 

I think I had to leave these 5 verses alone and move on to the rest of Daniel because they were impossible to unpack. I think after going through the later chapters and spending at least 5 months just on trying to interpret them did I realize that 2:34 HAD to mean the cross for them to make any sense. 
 

I don’t know your interpretations on these 5 verses … if in the meantime, perhaps you might send me your thoughts just on verse 2:41. 
 

Thanks so much for your response. Also, if you would like to receive an authors copy of my commentary on Daniel, (no charge at all), please send me a PM with your contact/ mailing information and I will process through Amazon immediately. 

 

 

 

 

 

[BlindSeeker]

 

[BlindSeeker]

On 12/31/2024 at 3:54 PM, Michael37 said:

Rome as a type or example replaces the actuality of Rome as a geopolitical force, and even a casual reading of Apocalyptic Scripture can lead to the realisation that a spiritual element is behind the rise and fall of earthly empires.

What specially do you mean by "Apocalyptic Scripture," as far as book of the Bible. 

[BlindSeeker]

On 12/31/2024 at 5:23 PM, Marilyn C said:

There will be a fourth kingdom on the earth 3 1/2 years before the Lord sets up His rule through Israel over the nations of the world. (Dan. 7: 23 - 27)

And we know that the last Gentile kingdom rule, Political and economic power and authority does extend to people having to have their authorization to `buy and sell.` 

We all know (or think we do) that "a time and times and the dividing of time" translates to 3 1/2 - but how do you know the unit in time being referenced?

For example - hour, day, week, month, year, or as few consider what the Spirit had Matthew take note of  below -

 Matt 1:17 - So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

Clearly, these have all been placed into a unit of measure, even though there durations timewise may very well differ...

What has convinced you it means 3 1/2 years.

Edited February 9 by BlindSeeker

[Michael37]

33 minutes ago, BlindSeeker said:

What specially do you mean by "Apocalyptic Scripture," as far as book of the Bible. 

God-breathed passages that disclose elements and events in God's economy that would otherwise be unknown, particularly the rise and fall of empires and emperors, and various descriptions of the spiritual realm.