The Rapture will happen in the middle of the Tribulation

[Keras]

29 minutes ago, Paul River said:

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 1 Thes 4:16-17

That Prophecy will be fulfilled when Jesus Returns. when He descends from heaven...... He does not do a U turn and take His people back to heaven, but lands on the Mount of Olives, Zechariah 14:4, and commences His Millennium rule. 

This 'caught up' is just a transportation thru the earths atmosphere, so the faithful Christian peoples, the ones who kept their faith thru all the trials and testing; 1 Peter 4:12, will always be with Him. 

[Keras]

5 minutes ago, douggg said:

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

So who are the brethren in heaven ?  

 

Rev 12:10 does not say our brethren are in heaven. 

Maybe, they are the souls of the martyrs, kept under the heavenly Altar. All those killed for their faith from Stephen and still ongoing today.  God allows them to cry out at times, Revelation 6:9-11, but they are not living, as such; in heaven.

Its just pretentious and speculative of you to try to place humans in heaven, when you cannot provide any scripture to say how and when they got there. 

[douggg]

2 minutes ago, Keras said:

Its just pretentious and speculative of you to try to place humans in heaven, when you cannot provide any scripture to say how and when they got there. 

I am asking you how they got there.

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

Would these under the altar at the 5th seal mentioned earlier count for those  whose voice mentions "our brethren" there?

Because they mention those on earth

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them 
that dwell on the earth?

And their brethren are mentioned here

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, 
until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Could they count as those in heaven speaking concerning their brethren maybe?

[Keras]

3 hours ago, douggg said:

I am asking you how they got there.

And I told you: They were killed for their faith; 

Just get your head chopped off and you will get your hearts desire; in heaven.  Could be getting a tad crowded under the Altar!

1 hour ago, AFlameOfFire said:

Would these under the altar at the 5th seal mentioned earlier count for those  whose voice mentions "our brethren" there?

Yes; God allows them to cry out at times. 

1 hour ago, AFlameOfFire said:

Could they count as those in heaven speaking concerning their brethren maybe?

Their fellow servants and brethren, are living people on earth. 

[douggg]

2 hours ago, Keras said:

And I told you: They were killed for their faith; 

Just get your head chopped off and you will get your hearts desire; in heaven.  Could be getting a tad crowded under the Altar!

It does not say that they are under the Altar.  

You claim that there are no humans in heaven.   Which is obviously wrong.  Where do Christian souls go when they die?

And the 24 elders ?  

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Where is the Son of Man ?

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Where is Jesus coming from when He returns to earth.

 

[Paul River]

9 hours ago, Keras said:

Rev 12:10 does not say our brethren are in heaven. Maybe, they are the souls of the martyrs, kept under the heavenly Altar. All those killed for their faith from Stephen and still ongoing today.  God allows them to cry out at times, Revelation 6:9-11, but they are not living, as such; in heaven Its just pretentious and speculative of you to try to place humans in heaven, when you cannot provide any scripture to say how and when they got there. 

So . . . those saints were just wondering around here on earth with their white robes Rev 6:11. Someone is being pretentious! Come on Keras, the New Jerusalem or Bride of Christ comes down from Heaven and down to the earth Rev 21:10. And we see those same saints in Rev 7:9-17 in heaven with their fancy white robes, we see them again in Rev 19:7, 8, and again in Rev 20:4. The saints are in heaven and do not come back done until after the Millennial Kingdom.

[Keras]

8 hours ago, douggg said:

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

This interpretation is your fundamental error.  To think that you can escape, is a direct contradiction of what will come upon all who dwell on earth. 

A 'rapture to heaven', is an escapist doctrine, one that denies our Commission and means you have pre-judged yourself to be worthy of being taken direct to heaven. You can expect to have to explain to God why you do that. 

4 hours ago, Paul River said:

So . . . those saints were just wondering around here on earth with their white robes Rev 6:11. Someone is being pretentious! Come on Keras, the New Jerusalem or Bride of Christ comes down from Heaven and down to the earth Rev 21:10. And we see those same saints in Rev 7:9-17 in heaven with their fancy white robes, we see them again in Rev 19:7, 8, and again in Rev 20:4. The saints are in heaven and do not come back done until after the Millennial Kingdom.

Another direct contradiction; of the Words of Jesus; No one goes to heaven, except for the One who came from there. John 3:13

You make a seriously wrong assumption to say the people described in Revelation 7, are in heaven. That scripture never mentions heaven, but it sets an earthly scene, which does not change location. 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

12 hours ago, Keras said:

Yes; God allows them to cry out at times. 

Yes, they said, 

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true,  dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

These do not dwell on earth but were killed them (but both those that killed them were asking to be avenged and that which pertains to their brethren (as is noted in the following verse) still dwell on earth too.

Because he responds

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, 
until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

12 hours ago, Keras said:

Their fellow servants and brethren, are living people on earth. 

Yes, the verse you posted was

 Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

So I was implying that those in Rev 6 (who do not dwell on earth) could be speaking as it pertains to what was told them in Rev 6:11 concerning their brethren (or our brethren) having in sight the accuser of "our brethren" being cast down. Because the accuser can accuse the brethren before God (while they are are on earth too).

So I thought if you guys are looking for who it was that addresses "our brethren" from heaven it could be these if this is being sought out.

That all. I would think it was them.

Edited December 5, 2023 by AFlameOfFire

[WilliamL]

On 12/4/2023 at 9:15 AM, Paul River said:

Those who hold the pre-tribulation rapture position, usually site 1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" But this verse cannot possibly refer to Christians suffering here on earth, because Christians have been persecuted since the first days of the church. We find the timing of the Rapture in Revelation 14:14-16 where the Angel harvests the earth - right in the middle of the tribulation, and just before the time of Jacob's Trouble. This timing is affirmed by two passages where we see saints pulled out of the Tribulation in Revelation 7:13-15 and Revelation 20:4.

The harvest of Rev. 14 is not the rapture. The rapture is the firstfruits, not the main harvest of wheat and grapes seen in Rev. 14. Explained in detail here:

56. The Firstfruits and the Harvest 2.0; Part 1

An upgrade of article #24. Explains the prophetic application of OT laws about the firstfruits, the firstborn, and the full harvest, as these laws relate to the End Times. https://worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2686-the-firstfruits-and-the-harvest-20-part-1/

57. The Firstfruits and the Harvest 2.0; Part 2 https://worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2687-the-firstfruits-and-the-harvest-20-part-2/

 

On 12/4/2023 at 9:15 AM, Paul River said:

We are giving the church faults hope by suggesting we will not have to endure the Tribulation. We need to prepare for these troubled times.

I fully agree.

18 hours ago, Keras said:

The only people who could be thought of as being 'raptured', will be the two Witnesses; Revelation 11:12, and they do not go to live in heaven,

That does not jibe with scripture:

Rev. 11:11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.