Should Christmas be celebrated or rejected according to the word of God?

[Jayne]

2 hours ago, Marathoner said:

No one does. It's the typical SDA/Armstrong tactic of accusing others of doing things they aren't doing for the sake of their own argument. 

Thank you for explaining the SDA part of this.

[Marathoner]

2 hours ago, Anne2 said:

For Christians Christs birth.

Exactly.

[Debp]

I hate these threads against celebrating Christmas and I usually just ignore them.   It seems very legalistic for someone to condemn others or try to dissuade others from celebrating Christ's birth.

I celebrate Christmas and am happy when there is a certain time of year when Christ's name is proclaimed.    It's a joyous season and maybe secular people who have never thought of Christ will be touched hearing about Him in Christmas carols, Christmas cards with a message and perhaps even attending church.

I've read reports that Muslims and Hindus often attend Christmas gatherings put on by indigenous missionaries where they hear the Gospel.

To me, any opportunity where Christ's name is proclaimed is a good thing.   And Christmas helps provide that opportunity.   

 

 

 

[The_Patriot21]

Your logic, is illogical. You say for certain Christ wasn't born on December 25th, but then state that His actual birthday is unknown, leaving a 1/365th chance that it is indeed, on December 25th. So it is technically possible it is.

But, the thing is, if your worried about the date, then your missing the point of Christmas entirely. Your focused more on the "event" then the reason behind the event, and there's a term for that-its called legalism.

Now, realistically you are right, Christ wasn't born on December 25th. Early christians we're persecuted and moved the celebration of Christ's birth to that day as it was a pagan holiday, and people getting together was common, so no one took notice if Christians were getting together, albeit for different reasons.

See they got the point. They were celebrating Christs birth, because of the gift God gave them-a savior. The actual date was totally irrelevant, it was the gift that mattered.

Over the years, that pagan holiday died off. And Christ completely took over Christmas. And now, we see more and more, capitalism and greed is taking it over from Christ, which is unfortunate.

Christmas isn't about the trees, or the gifts, nor even helping those homeless people out. It's about Christ and what He did for some 2000 years ago, and it doesn't really matter if Jesus was actually born that specific day or not, or even what day you choose to celebrate it. What matters is worshipping God.

There's nothing wrong with Christmas trees or presents, or helping the homeless, or a lot of the traditions, but they're not the focus. If they're the focus your missing the point.

If your so hung up on the date or whether the Bible said we should or not then you shouldn't celebrate it, as your also, missing the point of it. But your not going to stop me from doing so. Because Jesus is the reason for the season.

 

 

[Anne2]

14 minutes ago, Debp said:

I hate these threads against celebrating Christmas and I usually just ignore them.   It seems very legalistic for someone to condemn others or try to dissuade others from celebrating Christ's birth.

I celebrate Christmas and am happy when there is a certain time of year when Christ's name is proclaimed.    It's a joyous season and maybe secular people who have never thought of Christ will be touched hearing about Him in Christmas carols, Christmas cards with a message and perhaps even attending church.

I've read reports that Muslims and Hindus often attend Christmas gatherings put on by indigenous missionaries where they hear the Gospel.

To me, any opportunity where Christ's name is proclaimed is a good thing.   And Christmas helps provide that opportunity.   

 

 

 

I somewhat feel the same way. I got caught up in that attitude years back. So I know what they might be feeling some anyway. But having been involved in the Messianic movement for a few years, I had my eyes opened some at a passover seder. Yes, we briefly partook of the Lord's supper during a two hour seder. But without all the rabbinic additions it is the Lords supper still. It seemed to others it was not. Like the Sabbath being made for man, the passover was made for our Lord, not our Lord for the passover. Same for Christmas.

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Anne2

[AnOrangeCat]

4 hours ago, Debp said:

I hate these threads against celebrating Christmas and I usually just ignore them.   It seems very legalistic for someone to condemn others or try to dissuade others from celebrating Christ's birth.

I agree, especially when we get a whole chapter telling us not to fight over things like people observing some days and not others.

[Tristen]

On 12/5/2023 at 9:30 PM, Bro.Tan said:

Christmas (December 25th) is taught to be the day that Jesus the Christ was born

Every halfway-informed Christian knows that this date is not necessarily the date of Jesus' birth. The date of Jesus' birth is not given in scripture. However, the event of Jesus' birth is most certainly recorded and celebrated in scripture. "December 25th" is simply the day most Christians agree to celebrate the birth of Jesus.

 

On 12/5/2023 at 9:30 PM, Bro.Tan said:

When Jesus was born, "there were shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night." (Luke 2:8). This could never have occurred in Judea in the month of December. The shepherds always brought their flocks from the mountainsides and fields and corralled them no later than October, to protect them from the cold, rainy season that followed

This is a myth. I know people who have travelled in Israel on Christmas day - and were surprised to see "flocks" grazing on the hillside.

I can't speak to the weather on the day of Jesus' birth, nor "December 25th" that same year. But it is well within possibility that "flocks" were outside grazing - despite it being midwinter.

 

On 12/5/2023 at 9:30 PM, Bro.Tan said:

Therefore, to celebrate Jesus' birth date on December 25th is not scripturally sound

Your argument does not logically support this conclusion. There is nothing counter-scriptural in celebrating Jesus' birth - regardless of the date we choose to do so.

 

On 12/5/2023 at 9:30 PM, Bro.Tan said:

Any encyclopedia will tell you that Christ was not born on December 25th

Then your encyclopedias are being highly presumptuous.

(Though - to the main point - the Christian church has always known that this date is probably not the true date of Jesus' birth. Your "encyclopedia" is not bringing any new information to the table).

The authority of a Christian is scripture, and not "Any encyclopedia".

 

On 12/5/2023 at 9:30 PM, Bro.Tan said:

Some may say, "It does not matter when He was born. I am just celebrating His birth."; whereas others may say "Jesus is the reason for the season." Is that really the case?

Yes. 

Even if all the specious associations with paganism were true, my heart is to use this event as an opportunity to worship and witness Jesus.

 

On 12/5/2023 at 9:30 PM, Bro.Tan said:

If Jesus is the reason for the season, then why didn't He let us know when to celebrate his birth?

Examining your reasoning - Are we only permitted to worship Jesus when we are given the exact date of the "reason" we are worshipping? Is there really a wrong day to thank God for sending His Son to earth?

 

On 12/5/2023 at 9:30 PM, Bro.Tan said:

We claim we love Jesus so much but why don't we observe his death as he commanded us. Luke 22:19, "And he took bread, and gave thanks, and break it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me." 

Why can't we do both? 

 

On 12/5/2023 at 9:30 PM, Bro.Tan said:

He commanded you to observe the Passover, not Easter, which is also a pagan holiday associated with wild sexual orgies

Firstly, He did not command us "to observe the Passover". We are admonished to share in communion with His broken body and shed blood. There is no date-limitation on this sacrament (as there is with the "Passover").

1 Corinthians 11:25-26
In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.

Secondly, the word Easter stems from the Germanic word Oster (or Osterfest) - which means Passover - as evidenced in early Germanic Bibles. Common claimed associations with paganism are mostly anti-Christian propaganda (even if your "encyclopedia" tells you otherwise). The majority of Christian traditions can be traced to Christian roots.

Thirdly, why are we suddenly talking about Easter? We certainly do know the time of year Jesus was crucified.

 

On 12/5/2023 at 9:30 PM, Bro.Tan said:

Jesus commanded us to observe the Holy Days in Leviticus the 23rd chapter but we ignore those days and observe traditions that have nothing to do with Jesus. (Matthew 15: 1-9)

We can have a conversation about the role of the Law if that suits, but we should stick to one topic at a time. That conversation is of such a scope, that it warrants a thread of its own.

 

NEXT POST

On 12/6/2023 at 8:35 AM, Bro.Tan said:

The 25th day of December was advocated by Julius 1, Bishop of Rome from 337 to 352, as the most suitable time to commemorate the birth of Christ. The day was finally placed on December 25th, which made it possible for all nations to observe a festival of rejoicing that the shortest day of the year has passed

Christians are recorded to have celebrated the birth of Jesus on the 25th of December as early as 202AD ("Commentary on Daniel" by Hippolytus of Rome).

Your "encyclopedia" got this wrong.

 

On 12/6/2023 at 8:35 AM, Bro.Tan said:

The reason was that the declining sun---the light of the world--had been reborn and began to gain in strength. Moreover, the newly converted peoples found it convenient to get a kind of substitute for their original celebrations of the solstice ". The birth of Jesus the Christ was assigned the date of December 25th, because on this day, as the sun began its return to the northern skies, the pagan devotees of Mithra (the Persian's Sun God) celebrated the dies natalis Solis Invicti (birthday of the invincible sun).

This is untrue. Christians were celebrating the birth of Christ on December 25th well before the Romans instituted Sol Invictus (as demonstrated in my previous answer).

 

On 12/6/2023 at 8:35 AM, Bro.Tan said:

The pagan [winter festivals of the] Saturnalia and Brumalia were too deeply entrenched in popular custom to be set aside by Christian influence

Saturnalia was indeed a pre-Christian festival - but celebrated over the period leading to December 25, but not on December 25.

 

On 12/6/2023 at 8:35 AM, Bro.Tan said:

Christians of Mesopotamia accused their western brethren of idolatry and sun-worship for adopting as Christian this pagan festival

The fact that evil is constantly trying to gain a foothold in the church, with varying degrees of success, does not logically entail that celebrating Jesus' birth is unChristian nor unscriptural.

 

 

[Ray12614]

Very interesting reading the view points of Worthy members on this subject!

We all form our opinions based on what we know of scripture, and, what we know of the history of Christmas (and various secular commentaries about Christmas). There is a real danger of reading commentaries and encyclopedias about various Christian subjects and elevating them (mans opinions and secular slants on history) to the level of scripture. Yes, they can be helpful, but, they are in no way authoritative for us to form our life style of how we relate to Jesus and worship our King. The bible is final authority.

Good subject!

Merry Christmas to all here who might be reading this thread . . . . 

Grace and Peace . . . Ray . . . 

[The_Patriot21]

One more thought on this, every Christmas out comes all the people saying we shouldn't celebrate Christmas because of it's pagan roots, or because it's a worldly holiday, really all these worldly reasons against it. Well, my question is, since when did we start letting the world influence when and how we worship God? Which is what your doing.

Virtually every day on the calendar is a holy day for some secular or pagan thing or another. Does that stop us from worshipping God any other time of the year?

The world is going to celebrate their way no matter what we do. It shouldn't stop us from worshipping God.

who cares why they celebrate Christmas, what matters is why we celebrate Christmas. I celebrate Christmas because of Jesus and for Jesus.

 

[Marathoner]

16 hours ago, Debp said:

I hate these threads against celebrating Christmas and I usually just ignore them.   It seems very legalistic for someone to condemn others or try to dissuade others from celebrating Christ's birth.

I celebrate Christmas and am happy when there is a certain time of year when Christ's name is proclaimed.    It's a joyous season and maybe secular people who have never thought of Christ will be touched hearing about Him in Christmas carols, Christmas cards with a message and perhaps even attending church.

I've read reports that Muslims and Hindus often attend Christmas gatherings put on by indigenous missionaries where they hear the Gospel.

To me, any opportunity where Christ's name is proclaimed is a good thing.   And Christmas helps provide that opportunity.   

I tend to avoid them as well but, in this case, I was moved to respond seeing as how the author is rather prolific in creating topics in this vein. The OP begins with a flawed premise --- conflating an observance with godlessness --- and proceeds to accuse those who observe Christmas of the same. Even unbelievers who observe the holiday season don't worship trees and the like. It's ludicrous. 

It's a tradition among Seventh Day Adventists, followers of the various Armstrong cults, and the Jehovah's Witnesses to engage in this kind of thing. Accusing others of godlessness is how their apologists seek to prey upon the vulnerable and the unwary. They seek anyone who struggles with doubt. "To the defiled, nothing is pure" rings true in their case since everything under the sun has been tainted by paganism in some way, yes? In the past, I would point out that the very language they speak and write is pagan in origin. It falls upon deaf ears.

I would like to encourage my brothers and sisters to pay this no mind. The Lord has never forbidden the observance of Christmas to me at any time, nor has He commanded me to observe Christmas, either. Observe Christmas with joy and thanksgiving for what we render to Him in faith is pleasing to God.