Should Christmas be celebrated or rejected according to the word of God?

[Bro.Tan]

On 12/7/2023 at 3:12 AM, Tristen said:

Every halfway-informed Christian knows that this date is not necessarily the date of Jesus' birth. The date of Jesus' birth is not given in scripture. However, the event of Jesus' birth is most certainly recorded and celebrated in scripture. "December 25th" is simply the day most Christians agree to celebrate the birth of Jesus.

 

This is a myth. I know people who have travelled in Israel on Christmas day - and were surprised to see "flocks" grazing on the hillside.

I can't speak to the weather on the day of Jesus' birth, nor "December 25th" that same year. But it is well within possibility that "flocks" were outside grazing - despite it being midwinter.

 

Your argument does not logically support this conclusion. There is nothing counter-scriptural in celebrating Jesus' birth - regardless of the date we choose to do so.

 

Then your encyclopedias are being highly presumptuous.

(Though - to the main point - the Christian church has always known that this date is probably not the true date of Jesus' birth. Your "encyclopedia" is not bringing any new information to the table).

The authority of a Christian is scripture, and not "Any encyclopedia".

 

Yes. 

Even if all the specious associations with paganism were true, my heart is to use this event as an opportunity to worship and witness Jesus.

 

Examining your reasoning - Are we only permitted to worship Jesus when we are given the exact date of the "reason" we are worshipping? Is there really a wrong day to thank God for sending His Son to earth?

 

Why can't we do both? 

 

Firstly, He did not command us "to observe the Passover". We are admonished to share in communion with His broken body and shed blood. There is no date-limitation on this sacrament (as there is with the "Passover").

1 Corinthians 11:25-26
In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.

Secondly, the word Easter stems from the Germanic word Oster (or Osterfest) - which means Passover - as evidenced in early Germanic Bibles. Common claimed associations with paganism are mostly anti-Christian propaganda (even if your "encyclopedia" tells you otherwise). The majority of Christian traditions can be traced to Christian roots.

Thirdly, why are we suddenly talking about Easter? We certainly do know the time of year Jesus was crucified.

 

We can have a conversation about the role of the Law if that suits, but we should stick to one topic at a time. That conversation is of such a scope, that it warrants a thread of its own.

 

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Christians are recorded to have celebrated the birth of Jesus on the 25th of December as early as 202AD ("Commentary on Daniel" by Hippolytus of Rome).

Your "encyclopedia" got this wrong.

 

This is untrue. Christians were celebrating the birth of Christ on December 25th well before the Romans instituted Sol Invictus (as demonstrated in my previous answer).

 

Saturnalia was indeed a pre-Christian festival - but celebrated over the period leading to December 25, but not on December 25.

 

The fact that evil is constantly trying to gain a foothold in the church, with varying degrees of success, does not logically entail that celebrating Jesus' birth is unChristian nor unscriptural.

 

 

Thank you for responding, and I hope you continue to seek the word of God, peace in Jesus name.

[Bro.Tan]

On 12/6/2023 at 6:02 PM, Anne2 said:

For Christians Christs birth.

Can you please post the scriptures or verses in the Bible when Christ was born?

[Bro.Tan]

On 12/6/2023 at 5:50 PM, Jayne said:

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I don't worship Christmas trees, music, lights, or presents.

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That's great, let's look at some things Paul says we should do if you worshipping Jesus. Paul says in (Rom. 13:7-10) (v.7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. (v.8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. That’s the biblical definition of love, the keeping of God’s law. (v.9) For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. (v.10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. 

And that is what God’s holy commandments are all about; the first four tells you how to love God and the last six tells you how to love your neighbor. If you love your God you will not do any thing to offend him, like having other gods before him. You will do as he says like remember the sabbath day to keep it holy on the seventh day of the week. If you love him you will obey him when he tells you not to eat certain meats etc… And the same goes for your fellow man, if you love your neighbor you wouldn’t steal from him, you wouldn’t kill him, you wouldn’t try and sleep with his wife and so on and so forth. (See exodus 20: 1-17) 

[Bro.Tan]

But if we got Christmas from the Roman Catholics, and they got it from paganism, where did the pagans get it? Where, when, and what was its real origin? It started and originated in the original Bablyhon of ancient Nimrod. Nimrod, grandson of Ham, son of Noah built the tower of Babel. Nimrod married his own mother, whose name is Semiramis. After Nimrod's, Semiramis claimed a full grown evergreen tree sprang overnight from a dead tree stump, which symbolized the springing forth unto new life of the dead Nimrod. On each anniversary of his birth, she claimed Nimrod would visit the evergreen tree and leave gifts upon it. December 25th was the birthday of Nimrod. This is the real origin of the Christmas tree. 

Through her scheming and designing, Semiramis became the Babylonia "Queen of Heaven," and Nimrod, under various names, became the "divine son of heaven." Through the generations, in this idolatrius worship, Nimrod also became the false Messiah, son of Baal the Sun-god. In this false Bablyhonish system, the "Mother and Child" (Semiramis and Nimrod reborn) became chief objects of worship. This worship of "Mother and Child" spread over the world. The names varied in different countries and languages. In Egypt it was Isis and Osiris. In Asia, Cybele and Deoius. In pagan Rome, Fortuna and Jupiterpuer. Even in Greece, China, Japan, Tibet is to be found the counterpart of the Madonna, long before the birth of Christ. The Lord God of Israel made reference to the worshiping and sacrificing to the "Queen of Heaven" in Jeremiah. 

Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

 

[Who me]

1 hour ago, Bro.Tan said:

But if we got Christmas from the Roman Catholics, and they got it from paganism,

Guess what, the months of the year and days of the week also come from pagan sources,  in your crusade  against Christmas  and Easter do you also campaign  against Christians using these pagan symbols?

[Marathoner]

Your argument is flawed, @Bro.Tan.

The numbers we use are Hindu-Arabic in origin, credited to two Middle-Eastern mathematicians. They were pagans.

The alphabet we are using on this forum has it's origins with the Phoenicians. They were Philistines and pagans.

The New Testament was written in Koine Greek, a language of pagans. 

When will you stop engaging in pagan customs, my friend? Seeing as how the Lord taught us to examine ourselves first, see to your own conduct before teaching others to do as you say, not as you do. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Marathoner

[Mr. M]

2 hours ago, Bro.Tan said:

But if we got Christmas from the Roman Catholics, and they got it from paganism, where did the pagans get it? Where, when, and what was its real origin? It started and originated in the original Bablyhon of ancient Nimrod. Nimrod, grandson of Ham, son of Noah built the tower of Babel. Nimrod married his own mother, whose name is Semiramis. After Nimrod's, Semiramis claimed a full grown evergreen tree sprang overnight from a dead tree stump, which symbolized the springing forth unto new life of the dead Nimrod. On each anniversary of his birth, she claimed Nimrod would visit the evergreen tree and leave gifts upon it. December 25th was the birthday of Nimrod. This is the real origin of the Christmas tree. 

Through her scheming and designing, Semiramis became the Babylonia "Queen of Heaven," and Nimrod, under various names, became the "divine son of heaven." Through the generations, in this idolatrius worship, Nimrod also became the false Messiah, son of Baal the Sun-god. In this false Bablyhonish system, the "Mother and Child" (Semiramis and Nimrod reborn) became chief objects of worship. This worship of "Mother and Child" spread over the world. The names varied in different countries and languages. In Egypt it was Isis and Osiris. In Asia, Cybele and Deoius. In pagan Rome, Fortuna and Jupiterpuer. Even in Greece, China, Japan, Tibet is to be found the counterpart of the Madonna, long before the birth of Christ. The Lord God of Israel made reference to the worshiping and sacrificing to the "Queen of Heaven" in Jeremiah. 

Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

 

You seem to have quite the expertise on paganism. Why do you think this is important and desire to teach what is of no edification?

Romans 16:19 For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and innocent concerning evil. 20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.

You are engaging in the very legalistic behavior Paul warned against.

Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, 6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm. 8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners...

This I know for a truth, the more I know of the scriptures and the truth, the less I am interested in the things of this world. So teach the scriptures, not the things of this world.

[Anne2]

4 hours ago, Bro.Tan said:

Can you please post the scriptures or verses in the Bible when Christ was born?

 

Hi bro tan

It doesn't matter. That he was to born is what matters. 

[Marathoner]

6 hours ago, Bro.Tan said:

Can you please post the scriptures or verses in the Bible when Christ was born?

Matthew chapter 1 and Luke chapter 2 document the birth of Jesus Christ. 

[Tristen]

6 hours ago, Bro.Tan said:

Nimrod married his own mother, whose name is Semiramis. After Nimrod's, Semiramis claimed a full grown evergreen tree sprang overnight from a dead tree stump, which symbolized the springing forth unto new life of the dead Nimrod. On each anniversary of his birth, she claimed Nimrod would visit the evergreen tree and leave gifts upon it. December 25th was the birthday of Nimrod. This is the real origin of the Christmas tree.

I would be interested to see the primary source of this information (note - not a modern revisionist version - but an original, ancient source containing the claimed mythology). 

When I investigated the origins of the Christmas tree for myself, I could only trace it back to 15th century northern Europe (modern Estonia). Christians decorated evergreen trees with fruits and nuts and used them as the backdrop for performances of Biblical stories on the 24th of December (namely stories from Genesis - not Jesus' birth). So as far as I can tell, the origins of a decorated tree at this time have a Christian origin.

There is a pagan tradition of bringing evergreen branches into the home and hanging them on the wall. But that is not the same as a Christmas tree. And I could find no evidence linking the two practices.

I could find no evidence of Christians using decorated trees at Christmas before this time. I am therefore very skeptical that there is any primary evidence linking the Christian practice to ancient Babylonian mythology.

 

Furthermore, having investigated various claims of ancient pagan deities being born or celebrated on December 25, I was again unable to find the evidence for any of these in the original mythologies (despite this date being the solstice in ancient calendars). Only the Roman 'Sol Invictus' was explicitly celebrated on December 25. But this is a post-Christ festival that was instituted over a hundred years after Christians were already recorded to be celebrating Jesus' birth on that date.