Daniel chapter 2 (no not Revelation) by verse

[Charlie744]

Chapter 2 of the book of Daniel is one of the most important chapters in Daniel. It provides the structure of the 4 kingdoms that will come upon the earth and where God will place His prophetic messages. It is not a history book, but a story that reveals His plan of salvation for the Jews and mankind. He will select those actors, kings, and kingdoms that will play a part in His plan - consequently, the book of Daniel will not match or is meant to match  OUR historical records. We will find some kings and kingdoms in both Daniel and our history books, but He will also exclude actors, kings and kingdoms within these 4 and only 4 kingdoms that have not been given a "mission" to complete with His plan. Therefore, if we use Daniel (and any OT books of the Bible only) as our source documents, we can interpret Daniel in a manner exactly as the Jews would have / could have / should have before the coming of the Messiah in the first century. Remember, this book was written FOR THE JEWS AT THAT TIME read, study and get ready for the coming Messiah - they were His audience.

Chapter 2 has two major sections: In verses 31 to 35, Daniel reveals the "Dream Sequence" of verses. These specific verses provide a "big picture" of the coming 4 and only 4 kingdoms with His plan of salvation. They provide the external borders (Top of Babylon down to Rome), and well as the internal borders (each kingdom is color coded, has its own metal type and their own body part of a man). Each of the 4 kingdoms are separated by these characteristics and there is no bleeeding over from one kingdom to another. 

In verses 37 to 44, Daniel provides us with the "Interpretation Sequence" of verses. These specific verses are NOT a continuation of the "Dream Sequence" verses that come after verse 35, and therefore are NOT to be interpreted in a chronological manner, rather they provide us with the "details" of those events or prophecies that occur or take place WITHIN THE "DREAM SEQUENCE" verses. They are meant to explain the important events within the "big picture"  of the "Dream Sequence."

It is important to understand this presentation since most of the later chapters in Daniel (7,8,9,and 11) will be presented using this same method. If you are interested, I would like to walk through chapter 2 in a verse or verses approach. This will allow any and all to offer their interpretation JUST ON THE PRESENTED VERSES  and we can see how each other interpretes them and why. 

 

31 As you, O king, were watching, a great statuec appeared. A great and dazzling statue stood before you, and its form was awesome. 32The head of the statue was pure gold, its chest and arms were silver, its belly and thighs were bronze, 33its legs were iron, and its feet were part iron and part clay.

 

In these 3 verses, Daniel is telling us the following:

1) first kingdom - head of gold,

2) second kingdom - chest and arms of silver,

3) third kingdom -  belly and thighs of bronze,

4) fourth kingdom - legs of iron and feet of partly iron and partly clay

 

Although there is NO name given to these four kingdoms, I find they are Babylon, Medes-Persia, Greece and Rome. (4 and only 4 kingdoms).

Should we get to some consensus with these 3 verses, we can move on to the next 2 verses which will be more than interesting.

 

Obviously, this will only continue if there is a strong interest in getting through chapter 2 before tackling chapter 7 - its sister chapter. There, things  will indeed explode.

 

 

 

[douggg]

Before going to verses 31-33, the key verse in Daniel 2 is...

28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;        kjv

The bottom line objective is to reveal what shall be in the latter days.

Okay, Charlie, please take us through your interpretation to the latter days.

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The ten toes are ten latter days kings of the Roman Empire of the latter days.    Which in the latter days, God will setup His Kingdom on earth, which will stand forever.

Edited December 7, 2023 by douggg

[Charlie744]

53 minutes ago, douggg said:

Before going to verses 31 and 32, the key verse in Daniel 2 is...

28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;

The bottom line objective is to reveal what shall be in the latter days.

Okay, Charlie, please take us through your interpretation to the latter days.

------------------------------------------------

The ten toes are ten latter days kings of the Roman Empire of the latter days.    Which in the latter days, God will setup His Kingdom on earth, which will stand forever.

The purpose of this is to learn the thoughts of the many in this forum. They share their interpretations, I certainly can do the same and THROUGH this exchange we will all learn. 
 So far, your contribution seems to be that these interpretations are meant to be applied in the “latter days.” That is certainly true but what do you think this term means? End of times or the period from 606 BC to the end of time?

By the way, there is no mention of the 10 toes in the “Dream Sequence.”

 Do you want to comment on the these 3 verses? 
 
I am sure others have thoughts on these 3… 

 

 

[douggg]

6 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

That is certainly true but what do you think this term means? End of times or the period from 606 BC to the end of time?

That is not my interpretation, nor saying, nor position.

My position is the Lord's prayer.    "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is heaven".

.

Edited December 7, 2023 by douggg

[douggg]

17 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

 Do you want to comment on the these 3 verses? 

31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.   kjv

Some translations say "frightening".     imo, it implies dictatorship for each of the four kingdoms.

Charlie, you should notate right after you copy and paste a verse(s) the translation...   like I just did above for the King James Version.

Edited December 7, 2023 by douggg

[Diaste]

I was immediately interested, but then...

On 12/6/2023 at 7:26 PM, Charlie744 said:

 It is not a history book, but a story that reveals His plan of salvation for the Jews and mankind. He will select those actors, kings, and kingdoms that will play a part in His plan - consequently, the book of Daniel will not match or is meant to match  OUR historical records. We will find some kings and kingdoms in both Daniel and our history books, but He will also exclude actors, kings and kingdoms within these 4 and only 4 kingdoms that have not been given a "mission" to complete with His plan. Therefore, if we use Daniel (and any OT books of the Bible only) as our source documents, we can interpret Daniel in a manner exactly as the Jews would have / could have / should have before the coming of the Messiah in the first century. Remember, this book was written FOR THE JEWS AT THAT TIME read, study and get ready for the coming Messiah - they were His audience.

This appears to equivocate. It is a book of history, confirmed to be be historical by dozens of historians and hundreds of documents as well as archaeological evidence. Militaries fight wars by the historical lessons of Alexander. Maybe to the people of 585-230 BC it's current events, to us it's mostly history. 

 

On 12/6/2023 at 7:26 PM, Charlie744 said:

This will allow any and all to offer their interpretation JUST ON THE PRESENTED VERSES  and we can see how each other interpretes them and why. 

There is a great deal of relevant information in ensuing chapters related to chapter 2. To deny access to that information is to weaken to the understanding of the whole. 

On 12/6/2023 at 7:26 PM, Charlie744 said:

Although there is NO name given to these four kingdoms, I find they are Babylon, Medes-Persia, Greece and Rome. (4 and only 4 kingdoms).

Here you use information from later chapters to identify the kingdoms in chapter 2. 

On 12/6/2023 at 7:26 PM, Charlie744 said:

Should we get to some consensus with these 3 verses, we can move on to the next 2 verses which will be more than interesting.

Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece....NOT Rome.

On 12/6/2023 at 7:26 PM, Charlie744 said:

Obviously, this will only continue if there is a strong interest in getting through chapter 2 before tackling chapter 7 - its sister chapter. There, things  will indeed explode.

 

[Charlie744]

37 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I was immediately interested, but then...

This appears to equivocate. It is a book of history, confirmed to be be historical by dozens of historians and hundreds of documents as well as archaeological evidence. Militaries fight wars by the historical lessons of Alexander. Maybe to the people of 585-230 BC it's current events, to us it's mostly history. 

 

There is a great deal of relevant information in ensuing chapters related to chapter 2. To deny access to that information is to weaken to the understanding of the whole. 

Here you use information from later chapters to identify the kingdoms in chapter 2. 

Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece....NOT Rome.

 

So you don’t believe Rome is the 4th kingdom.. fine. Again, no name is mentioned here. But who do you believe is the 4th kingdom? 
 

Any comments that there are more than 4? Anything else these 3 verses tell us?

[douggg]

51 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece....NOT Rome.

Diaste, do you mean "Roman" instead of "Rome"?    If so, I would agree that the fourth kingdom is the Roman Empire - and not "Rome"

Charlie uses Rome because he maintains that the pope/papacy is the Antichrist/beast.  So Charlie says pagan Rome and papal Rome in building his case.

The four kingdoms are...

The Babylon empire, the Medo-Persian empire, the Greek empire, the Roman empire.

Edited December 8, 2023 by douggg

[Charlie744]

16 minutes ago, douggg said:

Diaste, do you mean "Roman" instead of "Rome"?    If so, I would agree that the fourth kingdom is the Roman Empire - and not "Rome"

Charlie uses Rome because he maintains that the pope/papacy is the Antichrist/beast.  So Charlie says pagan Rome and papal Rome in building his case.

The four kingdoms are...

The Babylon empire, the Medo-Persian empire, the Greek empire, the Roman empire.

I agree with you. The 4th kingdom is Rome or the Roman Empire. However, the 4th kingdom will be “divided.” 
Pagan Rome would be “slain and its body destroyed” and papal Rome would take its place (7:11). 
 

In early chapter 7, the 4th beast is Rome (specifically pagan Rome - there was no other Rome - it was a pagan nation). After the cross, the little horn and the 10 horns were found to come out of this 4th beast. 
Later on, (after the Roman Empire beast was slain and its body destroyed), this little horn and the 10 horns are now sitting atop this 4th beast. Meaning, they have now come to power. Over the past 450 years the church grew while pagan Rome declined. The bishop of Rome would win the battle over the other powerful bishops and would become known as the papacy. 
 

 

[douggg]

Charlie, you are forgetting Daniel 2:28.

28But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;      kjv

The fourth kingdom, the Roman Empire:

The legs of iron are the Roman Empire at the time of Jesus's first coming.   

The feet of iron mixed with mirey clay are the Roman Empire at the time of Jesus's second coming - in the latter days. 

 

3 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

In early chapter 7, the 4th beast is Rome (specifically pagan Rome - there was no other Rome - it was a pagan nation). After the cross, the little horn and the 10 horns were found to come out of this 4th beast. 

The little horn coming to power and his activities involving - the stopping of the daily sacrifice/transgression of desolation/making the temple desolate - is for the time of the end.    Daniel 8:17

The little horn is not the pope/papacy because...

The little horn and the ten horns are time of the end kings (leaders) of the Roman Empire in the latter days - when they will make their appearance.

Not historic kings - after all, you have said that Daniel is not a history book.

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by douggg