7 Churches in Revelation

[douggg]

22 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I don’t think Revelation had a timeline as others think. I think most of Revelation is looking back as Daniel was looking forward. Most, if not all have Daniel taking place at the end times ( I think that is also your view). But to me, almost all of Daniel has already taken place.

Of course, there will be true end time events, but they focus on the spiritual war between God’s kingdom that He set up on earth and the little horn who will / has done everything he could to go against Him. He has preached a false gospel and has steered billions from salvation. 
 

So, I am hoping to find a similar structure to that of Daniel. One can take all the “detail” verses and plug them under or within each of the 4 kingdoms. 
 

If the 7 churches are acting in the same capacity as the 4 churches in Daniel, then I would like to know if anyone had “tagged” or identified those “interpretation like verses” to each church.

I don’t believe the above will make much sense since everyone seems to view Daniel in a truly chronological manner. 

Charlie, the Revelation latter days basis for the big picture timeline chart begins here...

Revelation 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

 kjv   

Edited December 8, 2023 by douggg

[douggg]

14 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I am thinking these 7 churchs may reveal the time period this book will cover (first church after the cross) t0 the final church (today).

So which of the 7 church's are you interpreting to be the Roman Catholic Church of the pope/papacy ?

[WilliamL]

On 12/7/2023 at 6:59 PM, Charlie744 said:

Could these 7 churches serve as the "structure" where the remaining chapters in Revelation are placed? I have a feeling the 7 seals, 7 trumpets and the 7 bowls might be 3 different views that take place during these 7 churches...?

Any thoughts?

Rev. 4:1 tells that John is taken up into heaven "after these things," and shown "things that must take place after these things."

What "these things"? The things of the seven churches (the subject of the two preceeding chapters). Which is to say, the things and times of the Christian era.

Which era Christian and non-Christian people alike are now saying is over, or nearly so.

[Spiros]

The 7 Churches of Asia represent a geographical projection of the Holy Land based on the geometric notion of the 12,000 Stadia New Jerusalem. The size of New Jerusalem is defined based on the latitude and altitude of Jerusalem. A place that has a larger latitude than Jerusalem will lead to a larger New City cube. This way the size of New Nazareth is 12,689 Stadia. The 7 Churches of Asia therefore represent a projection through the geometric notion of a diagonal of a square, or by multiplying with the square root of 2 or 1.414. This way the most Northern of the Holy Land, Nazareth projects to Pergamus the most Northern of the 7 Churches through a  New Pergamus cube size of 1.414 times  12,689 Stadia or roughly 17,971 Stadia. 

 

A place that has a smaller latitude than Jerusalem will lead to a smaller New City cube. This way the size of New Bethlehem is 11,945 Stadia. This way the most Southern of the Holy Land, Bethlehem projects to Laodicea through a  New Laodicea cube size of 1.414 times  11,945 Stadia or roughly 16,840 Stadia. 

 

At the same time though the 7 Churches correspond to the 7 celestial bodies, 5 planets and the Sun and Moon, through the 7 days of the week.

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Spiros

[Marilyn C]

[Charlie744]

On 12/8/2023 at 9:00 AM, douggg said:

So which of the 7 church's are you interpreting to be the Roman Catholic Church of the pope/papacy ?

 

On 12/8/2023 at 9:00 AM, douggg said:

So which of the 7 church's are you interpreting to be the Roman Catholic Church of the pope/papacy ?

Thanks Dougg! 
I am attempting to paint the outside of the box… I don’t know what it should look like nor the timing.

But to try and answer your question, there is only one church but it was appropriated by the little horn of Daniel 7/8.

But that does not mean this church will not go through different stages or is presented in different stages just as the 4 kingdoms in Daniel were shown. 
 

But I don’t know if this is a correct structure. Also, do the  7 churches reflect the period just after the cross? 
 

Do the 4 horses reflect the different stages of papal Rome during the past 1500 years. 
 

I don’t know how the “7’s” should be placed in the structure. I don’t see them at this time as linear events. 
 

It is still early in this process. Although NO ONE HAS READ MY INTERPRETATION ON CHAPTER 11 (since it is only in my book), it ends with the little horn / papacy already coming to full power over His church (awaiting the second coming). Consequently, I was thinking that the beginning of Revelation would serve as the continuation of these last 1500 years of the church age. 
 

This is why I was thinking the 4 horses reflected the papacy - the white horse (no bow) coming to conquer. He did not come to power through military battles but afterwards, they would certainly kill, murder and destroy any that failed to agree with them. 

[douggg]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:42 PM, Charlie744 said:

But I don’t know if this is a correct structure. Also, do the  7 churches reflect the period just after the cross? 

I think that the messages to the 7 church's in Asia Minor was presented to them as a collection of what God was saying about each of them, in order for them to stand on their strong points and work to strengthen their weak points prevalent in each one of those church in the period just after cross.

By presenting the messages as a collection, so each could view the others' strength and weaknesses - it served to describe different type of Christians... so individual Christians of all ages, not to just those first century 7 church's, could benefit by self-examination.

On 12/25/2023 at 10:42 PM, Charlie744 said:

Do the 4 horses reflect the different stages of papal Rome during the past 1500 years. 

No, I think the 4 horsemen of Revelation 6 are all end times representations.

On 12/25/2023 at 10:42 PM, Charlie744 said:

 

This is why I was thinking the 4 horses reflected the papacy - the white horse (no bow) coming to conquer. He did not come to power through military battles but afterwards, they would certainly kill, murder and destroy any that failed to agree with them. 

I consider the rider on the white horse (indicating a messianic figure) given a crown is the Antichrist person made so being anointed (given a crown) the King of Israel. (he must be a Jew and his religion Judaism)

And that his first act will be to confirm the Mount Sinai covenant in Daniel 9:27, to begin the 7 year 70th week for the events in the rest of Revelation.

The great tribulation events in the rest of Revelation do not begin until his stint as the King of Israel, perceived messiah by the Jews is over.      The great tribulation events do not begin until after he is killed and comes back alive to become the beast-king.

The Pope/Papacy does not fit into the picture.    The notion that the Pope/Papacy was/is the Antichrist came out of the reformation period when the Vatican was persecuting them who were trying to move out from being under Papal authority.     Which the Pope/Papacy being the Antichrist probably made sense to the reformers given the broad scale of persecution, torture, and murders at the time.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by douggg

[Charlie744]

23 minutes ago, douggg said:

I think that the messages to the 7 church's in Asia Minor was presented to them as a collection of what God was saying about each of them, in order for them to stand on their strong points and work to strengthen their weak points prevalent in each one of those church in the period just after cross.

By presenting the messages as a collection, so each could view the others' strength and weaknesses - it served to describe different type of Christians... so individual Christians of all ages, not to just those first century 7 church's, could benefit by self-examination
 

Yes, I believe you are correct. 

23 minutes ago, douggg said:

No, I think the 4 horsemen of Revelation 6 are all end times representations.

I am leaning towards they represent 4 different stages of their kingdom. From the time they take full power after the demise of pagan Rome (white horse with no bow), then they begin to murder, destroy any that don’t accept their supremacy, and the last two horses that bring death and destruction until the end. 

23 minutes ago, douggg said:

I consider the rider on the white horse (indicating a messianic figure) given a crown is the Antichrist person made so being anointed (given a crown) the King of Israel. (he must be a Jew and his religion Judaism)

The crown on this figure is / placed on the papacy showing he conquered and succeeded in getting to the top of the 4th beast kingdom. 

23 minutes ago, douggg said:

And that his first act will be to confirm the Mount Sinai covenant in Daniel 9:27, to begin the 7 year 70th week for the events in the rest of Revelation.

I don’t understand how anyone can not see that 9:24 - 27 is all messianic prophecy. Jesus arrived on the 1st day of the 70th week to begin His ministry. He was crucified 3.5 years INTO the final 7 years. He fulfilled His God given mission before the cross. Daniel is not prophesying about some anti-Christ figure. The entire chapter is about Him and His sacrifice on the cross. The 70 weeks are fulfilled. 
 

 

23 minutes ago, douggg said:

The great tribulation events in the rest of Revelation do not begin until his stint as the King of Israel, perceived messiah by the Jews is over.      The great tribulation events do not begin until after he is killed and comes back alive to become the beast-king.

The Pope/Papacy does not fit into the picture.    The notion that the Pope/Papacy was/is the Antichrist came out of the reformation period when the Vatican was persecuting them who were trying to move out from being under Papal authority.     Which the Pope/Papacy being the Antichrist probably made sense to the reformers given the broad scale of persecution, torture, and murders at the time.

Dougg, I believe you have this backwards. The papacy was considered the little horn up to the Reformation. The RCC commissioned a Jesuit priest named Ribera to construct an alternative interpretation to their being viewed as the little horn. Please google this priest - he is not a fabrication. 
 

There is no “anti-Christ” individual, but the evil one is very real - and God has identified him in Daniel 7,8,9, and 11. 

 

 

23 minutes ago, douggg said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

On 12/7/2023 at 7:59 PM, Charlie744 said:

Could these 7 churches serve as the "structure" where the remaining chapters in Revelation are placed? I have a feeling the 7 seals, 7 trumpets and the 7 bowls might be 3 different views that take place during these 7 churches...?

Jesus said in Matthew 24:14 - This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

John was told in Revelation 1:19 - Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.

Using the sequence that Jesus established in Matthew 24, the seven churches represents preaching the gospel to the whole world.  After that, the scroll with seven seals brings about the end.

[JoeCanada]

On 12/7/2023 at 5:59 PM, Charlie744 said:

In the beginning of Daniel, God reveals the physical  / time structure for all of the prophecies that will take place. In this book it is the 4 physial kingdoms. Within these 4 kingdoms the Jewish people will travel through them and God will reveal His prophecies as they relate to His people.

In the beginning book of Revelation, I see that God quickly introduces us to the 7 churches. I am thinking these 7 churchs may reveal the time period this book will cover (first church after the cross) t0 the final church (today). Within those churches God will provide us with those actors and events that play a part in His plan of salvation -no differnt than what He did in Daniel. 

In Daniel the chapter 2 four kingdom structure is given but He will use different symbols and expand on the prophetic events throughout the later chapters. 

Could these 7 churches serve as the "structure" where the remaining chapters in Revelation are placed? I have a feeling the 7 seals, 7 trumpets and the 7 bowls might be 3 different views that take place during these 7 churches...?

Any thoughts?

Hi Charlie,

Well I do not know how I missed this topic.

I searched for "Letters to the 7 Churches" around the end of November but found nothing. Had I delayed my search a few weeks I would have found your post.

I began writing a paper on this topic and was almost finished when something happened with my computer and I lost it all. So back to square one. So frustrating that I neglected to save it. Live and learn!............ I'm in the process of rewriting it and should be finished soon.

Here are some points that are key understandings related to the 7 letters:

... The Letters to the 7 Churches (L7C) were written in apocalyptic language; there is no other section of the Bible that is related to Christian living written in this type of language

... The L7C's contain numerous Old Testament and New Testament references and symbols which apply to the end times

... Revelations purpose is to explain the Book of Daniel. The concept of including advice to local churches in John's time is out of place. ( I will explain this in my paper)

... There are numerous references within the L7C's to end-time events 

... There were many more than just 7 churches in Asia Minor, some larger and more influential. Why were these seven singled out to receive instruction from Jesus. 

Thanks for posting this topic.