What will the `catching away be like? `

[Marilyn C]

34 minutes ago, TheBlade said:

Thanks Sis I like and noticed how you asked it. Anything I say will just be speculation. I do wonder will I be walking or going to work or shopping or going to bed and I stop.. I sense in the spirit something is about to happen and poof gone? Will I hear the voice, shout, trump?

Since you didn't ask for a debate .. all I will say. But OOH YES SIS! YES! Praise GOD GLORY GLORY GLORY TO JESUS! Only time I love to CAP. Yes shouting it! 

So good to hear another know the TRUTH. Blessings.

[JohnD]

The prophetic clues in the Bible about the taking out / catching up / rapture (as it is most familiarly referred to) are often confused with the passages about the second coming.

So much so, that there is an element that disbelieves in a rapture altogether and that the references to the deliverance is only at the second coming of Christ (in their view).

Hank Hanegaaff (President of Christian Research Institute) being one of them. When asked (on the Bible Answer Man broadcast), he goes into a diatribe of his post tribulation beliefs.

I believe the late founder of CRI and the original Bible Answer Man Dr Walter Martin was also a post tribulationist. He usually deescalated the hot topic with the quip "Some are pre trib, 

some are mid trib, which is mostly pure trib..." and folks would chuckle and he went on to something else.

The thing is, all three eschatology camps get it partially right and partially wrong. All three camps can quote scripture to back their partially right position... but they all get the division of

the 70th Week of Daniel wrong.

The 70the Week of Daniel is a week of 360-day years (the Hebrew decade totaling 2520 days) which is directly and indirectly divided in two  in scripture:

1260 days (three and a half years) ← Revelation 11:3 / Revelation 12:6

42 months (three and a half years) ← Revelation 11:2 / Revelation 13:5

time plus times plus half a time (time = one year, times = two years, half a time = six months totaling three and a half years) ← Daniel 7:25 / Daniel 12:7 / Revelation 12:14

The three camps all  mistakenly determine the 70th Week of Daniel is one seven-year tribulation. When it is a seven-year period of two tribulations (each  approximately three and a half years

long). There will be a tribulation in the first half on the 70th Week for believers in Jesus Christ. And the Body of Christ will be vanquished by this persecution like never before (tracking the one people [Christians] who will not take the mark of the beast is what that mark is truly all about).

Revelation 13:16–18 (KJV)
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Setting aside for the moment what the mark may look like or literally be, it's purpose is to make not receiving it a life or death choice. And only Spirit-filled believers will even know what is at stake:

Revelation 14:9–11 (KJV)
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[JohnD]

The second half of the 70th Week of Daniel will be when the false messiah who deceives the whole world will believe the Christians to be annihilated (actually the few who survive at this point will be so deep in hiding they will go unnoticed to those who have made an art of scouring the planet to find them). And the beast will ascend to the rebuilt temple and enter the holy place and then the most holy place claiming himself to be God. If the ark of the covenant is found and relocated there (or it a remade facsimile is built and furnished there) he will park his miserable carcass on the Mercy Seat (throne of God). And from there renege on the covenant he made with the Jewish people (Daniel 9:27) and affirm his Babylonian religion (begun way back in the days of Nimrod [the devil's Moses] see Zechariah 5:5-11).

And the temple sacrifices will be halted and only then will the Jews realize they'd been had.  And they will become the refuseniks the Christians had been in the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel. This is what sets up the Armageddon campaign to annihilate the Jewish people once and for all. Immediately following this reneging / defiling of the Jewish temple, those few Christians alive and deep in hiding will be taken out before the three and a half year Great Tribulation begins (which is God's wrath poured out on the world and the devil). For God's wrath was appeased on the Cross of Christ for believers in him.

This also has a purpose: to put the Jewish people's backs up against the wall of annihilation as never before that in the end they will cry out to Jesus for saving because nothing else will have worked.

The 200 million man army bivouacked in the valley of decision about to storm the Holy Land will be crushed like grapes in a wine press when the True Messiah Jesus returns  at the call of the Jewish people:

Psalm 118:25–26 (KJV)
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

Which Jesus referred to in part:

Matthew 23:37–39 (KJV)
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Save now! Hosha nah! (hosanna) Yeshua (Yehoshua) HaMoshiakh!

And he will return then and only then at their outcry (Isaiah 58:9). Zechariah 14:4 and Zechariah 12:10 describe the scene. 

P.S. this is not traditional mid trib eschatology (since they also mistake the 70th Week of Daniel to be one seven-year tribulation)

and they teach God's wrath is poured out on Christians as well as unbelievers.

P.S.S. this is not date setting as it will not be clear when the 70th Week of Daniel actually begins (until the temple sacrifice is abated on day 1230). Then it will be possible to determine the rest (or as our Lord put it, knowing the signs of the times and seasons). Believers who survive to this point will have a 105 day heads up about the rapture, but they will be so deep in hiding and laser focused on survival that the events in Jerusalem may not even get their attention. So no man will know the hour the Lord comes to meet them in the clouds. 

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

So when is the resurrection of the dead, and the living in Christ being caught up to the Lord?
 

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

Notice we see #1 the Lord himself decending, #2 the trump of the archangel is sounded, #3 “the dead rise first”and #4 the living are caught up to meet the Lord. 

So when do the dead in Christ rise first? The answer is below…

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

So it is clear, the dead are raised on “the last day”.

Notice the judgment is also on the last day as well….

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

The Judgment of saints is shown on the last day…. Revelation 20:4 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

Confirmed here….

Daniel 7:21-22 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.”

When do saints posses the kingdoms of this world?

Revelation 11:15 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Daniel was told when he shall stand in the lot of his inheritance, and that was not until “the end.”
 

Daniel 12:13 13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Notice in the above, (Daniel 7:22) Christ first comes and the judgment is given to the saints on the last day. 

So when does Christ come?

Son of Gods coming last day….
 

Luke 17:26-31

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

Notice above it was “the day” Noah entered they were destroyed, and “the same day” Lot left Sodom they were destroyed.

At the last day, at the Last Trump….

1Corinthians 15:51-52 “Behold I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at “the last trump:” for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead in Christ shall be raised incorruptable, and we shall be changed” 

Notice at “the last trump”the dead are raised, and so what happens at the last trump…
 

Revelation 10:7 7 But in the days of the voice of “the seventh angel,” when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be “finished,” as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:12 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 11:15 15 And “the seventh angel sounded;” and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Also notice the elect are still on earth during the great tribulation and wrath of God.
 

Matthew 24:22 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Revelation 7:14 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 16:15 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

All the scriptures agree there is no resurrection of the dead or the living in Christ until “the last day,”and at “the last trump.”


Now some will try to use Matthew 24:40-41 And Luke 17:34-37 as pre-trib rapture proof, but again Jesus says it has to do with His coming, when the Son is revealed. And both of those prophecies speak of the destruction of the ungodly on that same day, as it was in Noah’s day and in Lots day, just as we saw above in Luke 17:26-31.
 

It says the same in Matthew 24:38 that “the day” Noah entered the ark the flood came and took them all away. 

Now in Luke17:36 Jesus said one shall be taken, and the other left. In the next verse Jesus is asked where? Jesus replies “Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

To prove this has to do with Christs second coming we go to Matthew 24:27-28 “ For as the lightning comes out of th east, and shines even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.”

So what is Jesus speaking of here about a carcase and eagles being gathered together? Jesus is speaking of the supper of the great God mentioned in Revelation 19:17 And if you look at the context of Revelation chapter 19:11-21 it is about the second coming of Christ with all his saints, the marriage supper of the Lamb, the slaughter of the beasts army and the kings of the earth, and their flesh being fed to the fowls. And also the judgment of the beast and false prophet, which happens on “the last day.”
 

Revelation 19:11-2111 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

 

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

So all the scriptures agree, all these things happen on “the last day.”

Notice what Paul says below…

Ephesians 1:10

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:”

 

This also proves there is no secret pre-trib rapture because at “the last day” God is going to gather together “all the host”of heaven along with “all”the dead and living saints on earth at this single end time event.

 

Peace

[Ray12614]

22 hours ago, Starise said:

I believe as the bible says we will be raised at the "last trump" or just before it. The last trump doesn't happen until, well, the end of that chain of events. Trumpets are not silent, so how anyone gets anything secret from this I don't quite gather. It corresponds to when our Lord comes in the heavens which won't be much of a secret either

I don't believe we will see the wrath of God which to me means we will be protected for the wrath intended for those who rebelled and didn't follow God.. Some believe this to be a snatching away before major events transpire because they see it as the only solution to safety, but I believe we can be protected while here if we are still here. Neither does this idea negate that some may be martyred.

There is a purpose for God allowing this to happen for a time to some of His own. I mean, He sent His own Son to die, so it only stands to reason, we are followers of His and may experience His suffering in that capacity. Not really any different than what happens even now in various places on earth. Martyrdom of believers is not the wrath of God. 

 

Okay, now I see where you are coming from, thanks for the reply . . . 

Regarding the catching away of saints not being secret . . . I am with you on that point. The appearing of our Lord in the sky, and the trump of God will not be done in secret. The whole world will know that 'something' has happened. I suppose that many in our 'treky' generation will think that aliens or some other such nonsense will have happened. However the foolish virgins (Jesus' teaching here) will know exactly what has taken place, and no secret rapture will have taken place to leave them wondering. The biblically accurate Church has always looked for the soon return of the Lord, and lived their lives as faithful stewards in each of their generations. May we do the same, and be ready so that when He appears we can hear those most desired words of our Lord  in Matthew 25 "Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things . . . enter thou into the joy of thy lord."

So the question to us both (and anybody else reading this) is: Are we being about the Masters business, anticipating His return any time now, cleaning our lives up (we all need daily cleaning) and living for Him, or, are we saying My Lords appearing (not return) is not until the end of the 7 year tribulation and slacking off serving Him (certainly not saying you are, but it is really part of human nature right?).

Pre trib, mid trib, or post trib . . . soon these interpretations of scripture won't matter to us as we will be with Jesus, and all other end times issues wont matter to us any more . . . . Personally, I cannot wait to see Jesus . . .  

Thanks for the thought provoking dialog . . . be Blessed . . . Ray . . . . 

[Dennis1209]

On 12/8/2023 at 7:44 AM, Starise said:

Since I don't believe we are caught away until the very end at the last trump, I don't see there being a bunch of missing people unless many of us are delivered up for failing a social score of some kind which is a possibility.

It would not be productive to debate our different views on the Rapture. But we sure see eye to eye on an individual social score coming.

We have no control or input on who and what goes into our credit score or rating. That score affects more than our ability to finance something or the percentage of usury. It sometimes figures into employment and security clearances and decisions.

I suppose you have also heard all the banter about social scores?

There I go again >  

[Starise]

44 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

It would not be productive to debate our different views on the Rapture. But we sure see eye to eye on an individual social score coming.

We have no control or input on who and what goes into our credit score or rating. That score affects more than our ability to finance something or the percentage of usury. It sometimes figures into employment and security clearances and decisions.

I suppose you have also heard all the banter about social scores?

There I go again >  

Already a thing in China and why I think digital currency will be used to enforce it.  Go ahead, I'll live under a bridge or something before I'll agree to the conditions that may likely be presented.

[Dennis1209]

On 12/7/2023 at 11:03 PM, Marilyn C said:

 

1. `In the twinkling of an eye.` (1 Cor. 15: 52) We are changed that quick that no one will see.

2. We will have the same body as the Lord`s that is able to go through dimensions. Remember that the Lord came into the room where the disciples were without going through the door. So no visual there.

3. We will be coming together all the more as we see the day approaching, (Heb. 10: 25) so no one will be just going about life as usual. The Holy Spirit will be stirring in our hearts that the Lord is at the door.

4. Immediately after we go the Russian Federation & others will be coming over the Golan heights with the greatest army that there ever was or will be. (Joel 2: 2) The world wont know we have gone for the war will bring great fear and fill every screen.

5. Many thousands of people go missing every week across the world - evicted/homeless, kidnapped. holidays, moving, etc.

How many people would know you had gone? If it was reported it would only add to the missing numbers. Nothing unusual there. There is no central station that is recording specific people that are missing across the world.

6. The next Sunday the organizational public meeting will go on as usual. Most people will be there. No drama there.

7. The world will go on without us and no one, except close family will really know or even care. Life will become so hard with all the judgments upon them that just living daily will be the need. 

Marilyn.

Howdy Marilyn, always nice to chit-chat.

It is one of my favorite biblical topics to discuss as a pretribulation believer. At my age, chances are I will taste the sting of physical death, but I genuinely believe the Rapture is very close.

The following is from memory, which could be flawed: In the twinkling of an eye, we will all be changed (our glorified bodies). I do not recall the Bible saying we will immediately rise to meet the Lord in the clouds.

I take it we will ascend in like manner as Jesus did, the apostles watching His ascension. I picture it as slowly going up. Could we have a little time on Earth before our ascension? I checked a lot of commentaries on the following, and all were primarily silent, so it is another mystery.

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53. And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

It is speculation and not biblical, but I suspect we might be called up by name.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

We might even be blessed with some anticipation of what will occur. There will be a shout and trumpet blast before our glorification.

That will take moments, and to whom is the shout and trumpet directed? It appears to me we will hear it immediately before our blessed hope. Possibly those left behind will hear thunder as another biblical example.

Many scholars and theologians I study surmise that 10% of the global population leaves the planet at the harpazo. I have no idea how they derived that figure.

With the disappearance of millions of people (if that estimate is close to accurate), tens of millions more will be screaming for answers about where their friends and loved ones went.

I can only think of a couple of plausible explanations. Communications are down because of an EMP attack (becoming likely by the day now) or severe CME or solar flare wipes out electronics. Thus far, I am leaning toward “beam me up Scotty.” I suspect a great deception is coming.

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

Already a thing in China and why I think digital currency will be used to enforce it.  Go ahead, I'll live under a bridge or something before I'll agree to the conditions that may likely be presented.

It will be introduced faster than most are aware of. It is part of the approaching WEF and Agenda 2030. As you know, global central banks, China, and some other countries are dealing with it now. That will force everyone into the system. Dorthy, we are not in Kansas anymore. 

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Howdy Marilyn, always nice to chit-chat.

It is one of my favorite biblical topics to discuss as a pretribulation believer. At my age, chances are I will taste the sting of physical death, but I genuinely believe the Rapture is very close.

The following is from memory, which could be flawed: In the twinkling of an eye, we will all be changed (our glorified bodies). I do not recall the Bible saying we will immediately rise to meet the Lord in the clouds.

I take it we will ascend in like manner as Jesus did, the apostles watching His ascension. I picture it as slowly going up. Could we have a little time on Earth before our ascension?

Hi Dennis,

Yes, we both love to talk of the Lord and His soon coming. Now, in Acts 1: 12 the Lord was on the Mount of Olives and He ascended from there. And we know from the prophet Zechariah 14: 4 that that is where the Lord will return to earth again to deliver Israel and deal with the rebellious.

As to the `catching away,` that is to meet the Lord in the air, not on the Mount of Olives. 

Hope that helps. Marilyn.