Rev 16:18 suggests the earth is much older than Adam/Eve

[BeyondET]

6 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I guess you missed my point.  Of course God didn't create any stupid creatures.  So, if it not being about man, and not about angels, as your comment suggests, then who or what?  Thanks.

And you missed that I was referring to what you said below.

 

v.13 is clearly about satan, who "was created perfect

[FreeGrace]

46 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

And you missed that I was referring to what you said below.

 

v.13 is clearly about satan, who "was created perfect

Got it!  

[Spock]

On 12/11/2023 at 8:33 AM, FreeGrace said:

Look at every English translation on biblehub.com and see how the verse is translated.  As I pointed out, why even mention ""since man was on the earth" if the earth was created just 6 literal wr hour days before Adam?  

The FACT that John pointed out a reference point about "since man was on earth" shows that there is more to the story than man being created just 6 days after God created earth.

There would be no need to even mention "man on the earth" if the earth is 6 days older than Adam because we have the whole narrative of man being created after the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland, and needing restoration.

By saying "since man was on earth" clearly suggests there could have been worse earthquakes BEFORE man was on earth.

That is my point.

I respect your point FG, but I don’t “feel it.”  
 

I’ve studied and pondered the gap theory with an open mind.  Honestly…..but now, my mind is closed on the subject. I find the theory wanting.  Sorry…but this may make you feel better…..while I’m not…..my wife is …..and a huge one (supporter) at that.  I can’t turn her off, or change the channel….I’m in for life! 😂

[Spock]

On 1/1/2024 at 11:02 AM, Renskedejonge said:

Satan must have fallen before Adam and Eve were created.

 

Job 38:7

Or who laid its cornerstone,
 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed. And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Genesis 2:8‭-‬9‭, ‬16‭-‬17 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/gen.2.8-17.NKJV

 

Before Eve is even created Adam gets told to not eat from the tree of good and evil that was already there. There would be no knowledge of evil by experience when satan hadn't fallen yet.

 

 

I’m in this camp of thinking Satan’s fall definitely occurred sometime before Adam and Eve fell. But I haven’t gone so far as saying the fall had to be before  Adam and Eve were created. Something rubs me wrong on that….God said everything was “good” each of the first 6 days. I find it hard to accept somewhere in those “good” days, something bad happened.

[RdJ]

Just now, Spock said:

I’m in this camp of thinking Satan’s fall definitely occurred sometime before Adam and Eve fell. But I haven’t gone so far as saying the fall had to be before  Adam and Eve were created. Something rubs me wrong on that….God said everything was “good” each of the first 6 days. I find it hard to accept somewhere in those “good” days, something bad happened.

I don't know. I think it happened before He said: Let there be Light. I lately saw Job 38:8

Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
9 When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;

Job 1

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.
Job 1:6 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/job.1.6.NKJV

 

Here you can read it as that he's not a son of God. Maybe the ones who sang were the others and he had already fallen before God started to create the earth?

Darkness just sounds bad. God is Light. Sounds like he already fell.

 

And 

 

“Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God;

 

“You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. “By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones. “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you. “You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you.
Ezekiel 28:12‭-‬18 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/ezk.28.12-18.NKJV

This sounds like it happened before God started creating the earth. Sounds like it took a while. Not that he was created on day 1 then hush hush sin and fall on day 3.

Eden may be Eden in heaven because:

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’
Revelation 2:7 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/rev.2.7.NKJV

And because fiery stones and mountain of God does not sound like Eden on earth.

 

I think He first created the angels. Then satan fell and pulled 1/3 with him. That maybe caused the darkness, but I'm not sure about that. And then He created the material heavens and the earth.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, Spock said:

I respect your point FG, but I don’t “feel it.”

OK, that's a new one.  :) 

2 hours ago, Spock said:

 I’ve studied and pondered the gap theory with an open mind.  Honestly…..but now, my mind is closed on the subject. I find the theory wanting.

I would love to know what is actually "wanting".  As to "theory", I have given none.  Sure, there are lots of theories out there about what caused the earth to become a wasteland, but since God didn't give any details about the "how", I don't give any theories either.

What I have given comes straight from lexicons.  I deal only with the original language.  No, I haven't had any classes in Hebrew, but I can read a Hebrew lexicon as well as any student of Hebrew.  And biblehub.com is very helpful in showing ALL the uses of any particular Hebrew word as it is translated throughout the OT.

2 hours ago, Spock said:

 Sorry…but this may make you feel better…..while I’m not…..my wife is …..and a huge one (supporter) at that.  I can’t turn her off, or change the channel….I’m in for life! 😂

As long as you can turn her on!  ;) 

{sorry, couldn't help it}

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Spock said:

I’m in this camp of thinking Satan’s fall definitely occurred sometime before Adam and Eve fell. But I haven’t gone so far as saying the fall had to be before  Adam and Eve were created. Something rubs me wrong on that….God said everything was “good” each of the first 6 days. I find it hard to accept somewhere in those “good” days, something bad happened.

We know from Eek 28 that Satan was "blameless in his ways from the day he was created until wickedness was found in you".  v.15

And v.13 notes he was in "Eden, the garden of God".  However, v.12 says that he was "the model of perfection".  Since the first appearance of Satan in Genesis is as a deceiver, it would seem that before he had access to earth and the garden before God created Adam/woman.  Yet, Gen 1:2 is clear enough for those who are objective and recognize how certain words in v.2 are used elsewhere that something did happen that reduced the earth to a wasteland, so God restored it for man.

[Spock]

12 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

We know from Eek 28 that Satan was "blameless in his ways from the day he was created until wickedness was found in you".  v.15

And v.13 notes he was in "Eden, the garden of God".  However, v.12 says that he was "the model of perfection".  Since the first appearance of Satan in Genesis is as a deceiver, it would seem that before he had access to earth and the garden before God created Adam/woman.  Yet, Gen 1:2 is clear enough for those who are objective and recognize how certain words in v.2 are used elsewhere that something did happen that reduced the earth to a wasteland, so God restored it for man.

My bet is going on Satan falling sometime before Adam’s fall…I’m thinking Adam was about 33 years old when he fell. But not in the 6 days of creation when everything was GOOOOOOOOOD! 

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, Spock said:

My bet is going on Satan falling sometime before Adam’s fall…I’m thinking Adam was about 33 years old when he fell. But not in the 6 days of creation when everything was GOOOOOOOOOD! 

I also believe that all angels were created way before Adam was created.  As to age, God created Adam as a mature male, since God created him fully functional to carry on the duties that God assigned him.  But we can't assign age at his creation.

The Bible says Adam lived 930 years.  I believe that was dated from his fall when the Lord warned, "in the day that you eat of it, DYING, you shall die".

That is what the literal Hebrew says.  The Lord spoke of 2 deaths on that day.  The DYING refers to physical death, which is a process over time.  

Adam did not physically die on that day.  What did die was his human spirit, which Jesus told the woman at the well one must have a human spirit with which to worship God.  John 4:24

So, because Adam died spiritually on that day, and EVERY baby is born with a dead human spirit, every human being NEEDS to be born AGAIN, spiritually.

So, if we can calculate the exact date Adam died, we will know the year in which he sinned.

[enoob57]

The gap theory is a disobedience to God's Word
2 Corinthians 10:5 (KJV)

[5] Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
(Scripture)

Once one allows the imagination to have place in the study of God's Word then all becomes possible~ for it is the mind not just God's Word being used... we are clearly instructed in this process:
Ephesians 5:26 (KJV)

[26] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,