Daniel 7

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Charlie,

I agree that the Lord`s return is very soon. That`s great we both believe that.

Now as I said you have no scriptures to say that the Final Gentile Government is Papal. That is NOT a Gentile Global Government and does not control the world. It is only part of the religious entity under the `whore of Babylon.` 

I agree that Daniel dies not specifically say the 4th kingdom is papal Rome… but God does not write Scripture that way. It would be so easy if He did not use all the many pronouns… chapter 11 is full of them and it is so difficult to unpack. However, He certainly does give us enough to properly interpret His prophecies!

After all, they do not specifically identify Islam, China, the EU, etc., which ARE found in today’s accepted interpretations. 
 

And where there is the mention of specific nations - certainly in Revelation, they are symbolic or figurative… Egypt and Moab, the 10 kings, etc., are ALL symbolic. 
 

As I mentioned in one of my very recent responses to you, there are  plenty of comments or statements found in Daniel that identify the little horn, the 10 kings, the saints of the most high, etc. 

But the two most important issues between my interpretations and today’s accepted interpretations is the following:

1) my interpretations focus on the coming Messiah within the verses in Daniel as opposed to trying to match the verses in Daniel to events and actors in our history books, 

2) same exact answer but the focus is on His plan of salvation and restoration for the Jews and mankind. Again, not trying to look ahead to our current times and try to predict which nation the verses in Daniel are speaking about. 
 

If you are willing, I would suggest that you and I might take a look at chapter 7. We can rather easily walk through each verse to see when and why our interpretations begin to separate. 
 

From what I have witnessed, the most common difference is that so, so much of Daniel is thrown into the future (even today’s future) rather than speak to the most important time in man’s history and time he must important One who would come onto the earth - the Messiah!

I hope you might try this.. if you find even in the beginning of this exercise you do not want to continue… that is perfectly acceptable! 
 

And, since our interpretations are so different- Verses apply to the time of Christ v. End times, it would be very interesting- at least for me. Also, I would imagine that almost ALL of the folks in Worthy share YOUR view, they too might be willing to offer their thoughts as we move from verse to verse.

Thanks so much, Charlie 

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

13 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

 

If you are willing, I would suggest that you and I might take a look at chapter 7. We can rather easily walk through each verse to see when and why our interpretations begin to separate. 
 

From what I have witnessed, the most common difference is that so, so much of Daniel is thrown into the future (even today’s future) rather than speak to the most important time in man’s history and time he must important One who would come onto the earth - the Messiah!

I hope you might try this.. if you find even in the beginning of this exercise you do not want to continue… that is perfectly acceptable! 
 

And, since our interpretations are so different- Verses apply to the time of Christ v. End times, it would be very interesting- at least for me. Also, I would imagine that almost ALL of the folks in Worthy share YOUR view, they too might be willing to offer their thoughts as we move from verse to verse.

Thanks so much, Charlie 

 

 

 

Hi Charlie,

Actually, I think many people on Worthy think it is the RRE. 

Now that is a good idea to go through verse by verse. Go right ahead. I look forward to the discussion.

[Charlie744]

58 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Charlie,

Actually, I think many people on Worthy think it is the RRE. 

Now that is a good idea to go through verse by verse. Go right ahead. I look forward to the discussion.

I believe you are correct… 99.99999999% believe as you do! I happen to be Mr. .00000001%.

I will be heading home soon and I will send you a reply to this topic … beginning with chapter 7.  Thanks so much, Charlie 

[Sister]

On 2/9/2024 at 5:59 AM, Marilyn C said:

Just a point here Sister. God has judged Babylon, Medes and Persians, Greece and Rome rulerships. (eg. Dan. 5: 25 - 31)

There will be NO REFORMED kingdom.

There are NO scriptures of RRE. 

Hi Marilyn

Not sure what you are trying to say here?

The writing on the wall is showing that the kingdom of Babylon was coming to an end.   That same night, right after this, whilst they were still drinking and making merry, it  happened just like the writing said, and the kingdom was taken over by Darius of the Mede's.

Darius was the one who conquered Babylon aged 62 yrs old.  The Persians would soon join them.  Therefore the kingdom of Babylon was conquered and given over to the Mede's and Persians to rule over the earth...... by God's command, because he is the one who raises and subdues kings.  This is the kingdom that followed Babylon, that came after the head of Gold.    The kingdom of Rome had not yet formed, because the Kingdom of Grecia has to come next.  These scriptures have nothing to do with a reformed Rome, so not sure why you quoted these scriptures?

And just a note, something that I realised....v29 - Belshazzar wanted to make Daniel the 3rd ruler in the kingdom of Babylon.  So Belshazzar must of been Nebuchadnezzer's son, not grandson, and Daniel would of been the 3rd ruler of this kingdom if Babylon were allowed to continue.  Babylon only ruled for 70 years.

 

Daniel 5:25   And this is the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.

  Daniel 5:26   This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.

  Daniel 5:27   TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.

  Daniel 5:28   PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.

  Daniel 5:29   Then commanded Belshazzar, and they clothed Daniel with scarlet, and put a chain of gold about his neck, and made a proclamation concerning him, that he should be the third ruler in the kingdom.

  Daniel 5:30   In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain.

  Daniel 5:31   And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.

 

[Charlie744]

 

@Marilyn C@Sister

 

Sorry, I did not get back earlier, but we might begin to discuss Daniel 7. I would respectfully request that, for this exercise, ALL source material / records are confined to the OT Scriptures ONLY. Daniel was specifically written to the Jews and their city and they would only have the OT books to read, study and interpret the coming of their Messiah before His arrival. God would have given them all the information / prophecies in the OT prior to His arrival so they could / might expect / interpret and await His coming at the time prophesied in Daniel. Fortunately, we have those exact same set of OT Scriptures AND the actual events that took place during the 70^th week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy as well as what would happen with His church during the next 470 or so years (time His church was appropriated by the little horn).

 

Daniel 7 – Verses 1-6 ONLY:

1In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel [a]had a dream and visions of his head while on his bed. Then he wrote down the dream, telling the main facts.

2Daniel spoke, saying, “I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea. 3And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other. 4The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings. I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.

5“And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: ‘Arise, devour much flesh!’

6“After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.

 

Comments for discussion - refute, add, correct, disagree, agree, offer different interpretations BEFORE MOVING FORWARD TO FOLLOWING VERSES:

1)     This is a vision given directly to Daniel. Although Daniel would have no reason to connect this to Nebuchadnezzar’s dream in chapter 2 (quite some time ago), his vision would also reveal 4 and only 4 kingdoms. I do not believe anyone disagrees with that the 4 kingdoms in chapter 2 are identical to those mentioned in chapter seven.

2)     In Daniel’s vision, he sees 4 great beasts that came out of the sea – each different than the other. These are the same 4 kingdoms revealed in chapter 2 and are indeed separate and different from each other. Just like in chapter 2 were the 4 and only 4 kingdoms were identified by their own type of metal and body part of a man, they were separate kingdoms where no bleeding would carry over to the next kingdom.

 

3)     God has purposely identified these 4 and only 4 kingdoms will come upon the earth (within His plan of salvation) – they are the only ones that come out of the sea (He has chosen them and only them). Consequently, we can not add to or subtract from His Word – no other kingdoms will come upon the earth within His prophetic Words).

 

4)     Those actors and events found within each of the 4 respective kingdoms would stay within their boundaries. In each of the 4 kingdoms, God will purposefully give us two separate types of actors within EACH OF THE 4 KINGDOMS: 1) He will identify the king or power that He has specifically identified and chosen to play an important part in His plan of salvation. However, He will also identify those “minor” actors within EACH OF THE 4 KINGDOMS that do NOT have a play in His plan of salvation but they are given to reveal the END OF THAT PARTICULAR KINGDOM.

 

5)     The first beast is like a lion with wings. Its wings were plucked off and he was made to stand on two legs and given a heart.

 

6)     The second beast was like a bear that was raised up on one side. It had 3 ribs in its mouth BETWEEN its teeth. THEN, arise and devour much flesh.

 

7)     A third beast like a leopard with 4 wings of a bird. The beast also had 4 heads and dominion was given to it.

 

Okay, these are the first 6 verses in chapter 7. I would respectfully ask you to comment on these 6 verses and offer your interpretations…. We can move forward after everyone / anyone has made their comments.

 

Thanks, Charlie

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Sister said:

Hi Marilyn

Not sure what you are trying to say here?

 

It is God`s judgment up the ruler of Babylon.

`MENE: God has numbered your kingdom and finished it;

TEKEL: You have been weighed in the balances and found wanting;

PERES; Your kingdom has been divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.` (Dan. 5: 26 - 28)

This shows that it is God who is judging the rulers of the Great Image, the world rulers. This God does to all of them - judges them. There is one more yet to come to a head and then be judged.

Thus, I was showing that Babylon, Medes and Persians, Greece and Rome all their rulerships have been judged and they will not rise again for they are dead, in the grave.

[Marilyn C]

9 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

 

@Marilyn C@Sister

Comments for discussion - refute, add, correct, disagree, agree, offer different interpretations BEFORE MOVING FORWARD TO FOLLOWING VERSES:

1)     This is a vision given directly to Daniel. Although Daniel would have no reason to connect this to Nebuchadnezzar’s dream in chapter 2 (quite some time ago), his vision would also reveal 4 and only 4 kingdoms. I do not believe anyone disagrees with that the 4 kingdoms in chapter 2 are identical to those mentioned in chapter seven.

 

Good intro there Charlie.

1) I disagree. Dan. 2 reveals 5 body parts, the last one being `the Divided kingdom.` (Dan. 2: 41) We would all agree that it is called the divided kingdom, the disagreement is whether it is of the 4th or a different kingdom.

11 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

 

2)     In Daniel’s vision, he sees 4 great beasts that came out of the sea – each different than the other. These are the same 4 kingdoms revealed in chapter 2 and are indeed separate and different from each other. Just like in chapter 2 were the 4 and only 4 kingdoms were identified by their own type of metal and body part of a man, they were separate kingdoms where no bleeding would carry over to the next kingdom.

 

 

Same as above.

13 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

 

 

3)     God has purposely identified these 4 and only 4 kingdoms will come upon the earth (within His plan of salvation) – they are the only ones that come out of the sea (He has chosen them and only them). Consequently, we can not add to or subtract from His Word – no other kingdoms will come upon the earth within His prophetic Words).

 

 

Not quite sure what you are saying there for there has been multiple kingdoms on the earth in the past and even now in the world that God has mentioned in His word.

15 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

 

 

 

4)     Those actors and events found within each of the 4 respective kingdoms would stay within their boundaries. In each of the 4 kingdoms, God will purposefully give us two separate types of actors within EACH OF THE 4 KINGDOMS: 1) He will identify the king or power that He has specifically identified and chosen to play an important part in His plan of salvation. However, He will also identify those “minor” actors within EACH OF THE 4 KINGDOMS that do NOT have a play in His plan of salvation but they are given to reveal the END OF THAT PARTICULAR KINGDOM.

 

 

Not clear there but will wait and see what you write further.

17 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

 

 

 

5)     The first beast is like a lion with wings. Its wings were plucked off and he was made to stand on two legs and given a heart.

 

6)     The second beast was like a bear that was raised up on one side. It had 3 ribs in its mouth BETWEEN its teeth. THEN, arise and devour much flesh.

 

7)     A third beast like a leopard with 4 wings of a bird. The beast also had 4 heads and dominion was given to it.

 

 

5) 6) 7) are all scripture and you haven`t commented on those. 

[Charlie744]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Good intro there Charlie.

1) I disagree. Dan. 2 reveals 5 body parts, the last one being `the Divided kingdom.` (Dan. 2: 41) We would all agree that it is called the divided kingdom, the disagreement is whether it is of the 4th or a different kingdom.

Same as above.

Not quite surat you are saying there for there has been multiple kingdoms on the earth in the past and even now in the world that God has mentioned in His word.

Not clear there but will wait and see what you write further.

5) 6) 7) are all scripture and you haven`t commented on those. 

Thanks Mailyn, and it seems like we are going to have to stay here for awhile to discuss the 4 v 5 kingdom issue.

1) If we go back to chapter 2, how may kingdoms are revealed to Nebuchadnezzar?

    a) there are only 4 different metal types revealed,

    b) there are only 4 different kingdoms that are made up by the body parts of a man.

2) In chapter 7, how many beasts are revealed to Daniel?

    a) how many beasts came out of the sea? 

 

I do understand the 4th kingdom will be "divided,"  but do y0u really think the "divided" part of the 4th kingdom changes the number of kingdoms or beasts that God has caused to go out of the sea?  Please take a look at my first set of comments. 

This is a vision (both in chapter 2 and chapter 7 that came directly from God, and He is establishing His blueprint or physical structure of the kingdoms where He will place His prophecies within.  Certainly, in those times, AND during the past 2000 years, there have been hundreds and hundreds of nations and peoples over the earth, but God is restricting these symbolic kingdoms to reveal His prophecies that will cover the  entire period from 606 BC (Babylon) to His second coming. He is not interested in dicussing or predicting any other kingdoms that will come upon the earth like Russian, the US, Turkey, the EU or any other religion or power. 

He does not need them to reveal ALL of the Messianic prophecies, events or actors that take place over the n2xt 2600 years (from 606 BC) other than those found in Daniel. Consequently, the 4th kingdom will continue it a different form than pure pagan Rome  but it will come to symbolize a world that is ruled by the little horn (religious side) and have all the world  / secular characteristis of pagan Rome. He is not concerned about whatever "names" or "country borders", etc., we label them.

 

So, I ask you and anyone to comment on the 4 kingdoms and or beasts that are found in chapters 2 and 7. 

If you still believe there are 4 or 5 or, 6, etc,. then please offer your comments and we will continue to discuss before we move on.

Last comment before I hit send--- the 4th kingdom in chapter 2 is symbolized by iron, and it includes both the lets and the feet. There is no separate kingdom that is made up of clay ... the clay is within the feet of iron (4th kingdom). But yes, the 4th kingdom will be "divided", but there are still only 4 beasts that come out of the sea.

 

 

[Marilyn C]

12 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks Mailyn, and it seems like we are going to have to stay here for awhile to discuss the 4 v 5 kingdom issue.

 

Last comment before I hit send--- the 4th kingdom in chapter 2 is symbolized by iron, and it includes both the lets and the feet. There is no separate kingdom that is made up of clay ... the clay is within the feet of iron (4th kingdom). But yes, the 4th kingdom will be "divided", but there are still only 4 beasts that come out of the sea.

 

 

That is where you have made the mistake Charlie. The Kingdoms are described by Body parts and their strength by the metals &/or clay.

You are saying that the Kingdoms are symbolized by the metal iron. That is wrong.

The 4th kingdom is symbolized by the body part - legs, and its strength by the metal iron.

The Divided kingdom is symbolized by the body part - feet and its strength is iron and clay.

Two different body parts, two different kingdoms. 

[Charlie744]

26 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

That is where you have made the mistake Charlie. The Kingdoms are described by Body parts and their strength by the metals &/or clay.

You are saying that the Kingdoms are symbolized by the metal iron. That is wrong.

The 4th kingdom is symbolized by the body part - legs, and its strength by the metal iron.

The Divided kingdom is symbolized by the body part - feet and its strength is iron and clay.

Two different body parts, two different kingdoms. 

I don’t see it that way at all.

1) Yes, the 4 different types of metal certainly have different strength to them, and they also have different value to each of them. 
However, neither of these two characteristics are used to determine the number of kingdoms. Gabriel will mention the 4th kingdom is as strong as iron but that is to describe how it will conquer and trample over nations, but this is not being used to determine if is a kingdom.

1) in all 4 kingdoms, they are purposely differentiated by the “type of metal only - not by their strength.” Babylon, Medes-Persia , nor Greece are identified as separate kingdoms but the “strength” or even the “value” of the metal type. 

2) each is differentiated by their metal type and there are only 4 metal types. 

3) Also, God will use a “belt and suspender” type approach in chapter 2 (blueprint) to ensure we interpret there are only 4 kingdoms. He will symbolize each kingdom by the body part (s) of a man. 
Example: He will identify Greece as the having the “belly and thighs of a man,” while the second kingdom also has two parts of a man - “arms and chest.”

4) The 4th kingdom also has two parts- legs and feet of iron (pagan Rome). This is found in the “Dream sequence” verses. It establishes the number of kingdoms. Later on in the “Interpretation sequence” verses” ( detail verses), which begin in verse 41, Gabriel begins to specifically break down the different components of the 4th kingdom. 
 

5) Only then, does he provide the details of the feet and the toes. They are not found in Nebuchadnezzar’s Dream sequence - he only sees the legs and feet — not the individual toes. But Gabriel reveals the feet and the toes to Daniel. Meaning, the 4 kingdoms are seen by Nebuchadnezzar but Gabriel will provide the details and makeup of the feet and toes that ARE WITHIN THIS 4th KINGDOM OF PAGAN ROME. 
 

6) this is crucial because Nebuchadnezzar can only see 4 secular kingdoms- to him they do not have (or he can not see) any religious symbols or components in them. 
 

Please consider this and let me know what you think… without interpreting the verses of 41-43 correctly, we will not be able to identify the “divided” kingdom or the many verses in chapter 7 onward. They ALL have to speak about the same prophetic story - chapter 2 through 12. 
 

I think we might have begun this exercise in chapter 2. Also, I understand that MY interpretations are completely different than yours AND the rest of the “accepted interpretations,” but that is why we can go through these most important verses- to understand why we interpret these verses so differently.