Don't be deceived

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

The prophet Daniel wrote about the abomination of desolation not being placed by the king of the north.Perhaps it's time for you to read the prophecy itself and avoid false doctrine.

What is the big deal with what Daniel wrote?

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Then you can learn the truth.

Since you provide much more dogmatic claims than verses that SAY what you claim, where's the truth in that?

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

As for who has ascended to heaven.Ive already quoted who has ascended into heaven.The high priest has entered into the most holy place.How many high priests do you have that you believe have entered the most holy of holies?

So you just ignored the EVIDENCE I provided?  Why do only the verses you quote matter, but none of the verses I quote?

I mean, other than the fact that they refute your claims.

btw, when Jesus said what He said, He was still in His physical body.  And at THAT TIME, He was correct; no human had been to heaven.

I think you need to widen your horizons about what the Bible says.  If you ignore WHEN the Bible says something, you'll get into all kinds of problems.  Like this one, for example.

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Mathew 22:44

The LORD said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool” ’?

How many Lords do you have that you say they all sit at the right hand of God? .Scripture shows only one who has ascended into heaven to God that I know of.

Well, with eyes as tightly closed as you seem to have, of course you don't know what the Bible says.  Even though I have already shared verses with you.  Plus, your apparent refusal to answer my question about the souls of believers who die and where those souls go, shows how biased and prejudiced you are with evidence that refutes your own claims.

Paul made very clear that believers who die are "at home with the Lord" who is IN heaven presently.  Why don't you believe Paul?

John, in his vision of end times, saw "souls under the alter" IN heaven who were asking questions about revenge in Rev 6.  Why don't you believe John?

If you simply ignore verses that represent an inconvenient truth for you, I see no reason to continue this one sided discussion.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

2 hours ago,  FreeGrace said: 

Did you interview him?  How do you know that?

Because I know what it is.

I've read the book of Daniel and I know who place it in Jerusalem.

This is merely a boast, or a claim.  Don't tell me to read the book.  Provide clear evidence from specific chapters and verses, if you actually have them.

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

I've also read the Olivet discourse and the book of revelation that describe its effects .

Give me the chapters and all the verses.  Shouldn't be too difficult.

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

I've seen videos of it and have seen what it does.The aftermath and the pain and suffering it causes.

Videos of what, exactly?  Define "it".  You're not being clear at all.

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Few people understand,It's an Israeli option that is called to be used.

There's that "it" again.  I'm sure "few people understand" simply because you don't define or describe what you're talking about.  The use of "it" isn't helpful at all.

[Shilohsfoal]

52 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

What is the big deal with what Daniel wrote?

Since you provide much more dogmatic claims than verses that SAY what you claim, where's the truth in that?

So you just ignored the EVIDENCE I provided?  Why do only the verses you quote matter, but none of the verses I quote?

I mean, other than the fact that they refute your claims.

btw, when Jesus said what He said, He was still in His physical body.  And at THAT TIME, He was correct; no human had been to heaven.

I think you need to widen your horizons about what the Bible says.  If you ignore WHEN the Bible says something, you'll get into all kinds of problems.  Like this one, for example.

Well, with eyes as tightly closed as you seem to have, of course you don't know what the Bible says.  Even though I have already shared verses with you.  Plus, your apparent refusal to answer my question about the souls of believers who die and where those souls go, shows how biased and prejudiced you are with evidence that refutes your own claims.

Paul made very clear that believers who die are "at home with the Lord" who is IN heaven presently.  Why don't you believe Paul?

John, in his vision of end times, saw "souls under the alter" IN heaven who were asking questions about revenge in Rev 6.  Why don't you believe John?

If you simply ignore verses that represent an inconvenient truth for you, I see no reason to continue this one sided discussion.

Paul said he wouldn't be with Christ when Christ comes to earth.Paul made it perfectly clear he would be gathered to Christ at his coming.In fact Paul said ,

1 Thes 1

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

 

 

I'm quite sure our Lord has yet to come and our (including Paul)gathering together to him has also not taken place.

 

Edited February 23, 2024 by Shilohsfoal

[Shilohsfoal]

16 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

This is merely a boast, or a claim.  Don't tell me to read the book.  Provide clear evidence from specific chapters and verses, if you actually have them.

Give me the chapters and all the verses.  Shouldn't be too difficult.

Videos of what, exactly?  Define "it".  You're not being clear at all.

There's that "it" again.  I'm sure "few people understand" simply because you don't define or describe what you're talking about.  The use of "it" isn't helpful at all.

I tell you what ,I will make you a deal.

If you read the word of God as written by the prophet Daniel and quote who exactly it is that shall place the abomination that causes desolation,then I will give you a link to a video of the abomination that causes desolation which Israel policy calls to be placed within Israel and the countries that have invaded it.

[FreeGrace]

50 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Paul said he wouldn't be with Christ when Christ comes to earth.

No, he NEVER said that.  Or prove your claim with book, chapter and verse, if you actually have one.

50 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Paul made it perfectly clear he would be gathered to Christ at his coming.In fact Paul said ,

1 Thes 1

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

It is very clear to me that you are not very familiar with the resurrection of all believers.  And you got your citation WRONG.  The verse is in 2 Thess 2:1.  In this verse, Paul makes clear that the "gathering", which is what Paul described in 1 Thess 4:13-17, includes ALL believers from Adam forward.

How do I know that?  Paul told me.  1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

I like to color code verses, for easier understanding.  1 Cor 15 is the resurrection chapter.  So the subject in v.23 is about resurrection.

The red words state clearly that Jesus Christ is the FIRST human to be resurrected into an immortal glorified body.  So, what about all the citations in the OT and NT about people coming back to life from the dead?  They simply returned to their physical resuscitated bodies, only to die again, even though the Bible doesn't specifically state that.  

But the proof of all this is found in Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

How could Dr Luke write that Jesus was "the FIRST to rise from the dead", given all the citations of people coming back to life?  Simple.  Jesus was the FIRST to receive a glorified immortal body.  That proves that all the others would die again, because they DIDN'T receive an immortal body when they came back to life.  So Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from the dead, died again.  Or Dr Luke was lying.  He wasn't.

The blue words in 1 Cor 15:23 refer to the TIMING of the resurrection of the saints, which is WHEN He comes.

Every mention of the "coming" of Jesus, etc refers to the Second Advent.

Heb 9:28 - so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

This was written AFTER the First Advent of Christ.  So, "appear a second time" refers specifically to the Second Advent.  So EVERY mention of Christ coming is about the Second Advent.  2 Thess 2:1 clearly links the Second Advent with the gathering of all saints.

The green words refer to EVERY SAVED PERSON from Adam forward.

Or, prove from Scripture that there are saved people who don't belong to Jesus.  

So 1 Cor 15:23 is very clear.  Jesus gets the FIRST glorified immortal body.  Then, at the Second Advent, EVERY saved person receives their glorified immortal body.

50 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

I'm quite sure our Lord has yet to come and our (including Paul)gathering together to him has also not taken place.

Of course not.  The Second Advent will occur at the end of the Tribulation.  

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

I tell you what ,I will make you a deal.

I don't deal.  If you want to PROVE your claims, then cite the references, if you actually have any.

Since you keep "forgetting" to do that, I suspect that you really don't have any.

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

If you read the word of God as written by the prophet Daniel and quote who exactly it is that shall place the abomination that causes desolation,then I will give you a link to a video of the abomination that causes desolation which Israel policy calls to be placed within Israel and the countries that have invaded it.

That's like telling me to "read the Bible" to find a specific doctrine.  It is now rather obvious that you don't have clear Scripture or you would have cited them by now.

And some video.  Made by who?  The future abomination that causes desolation cannot be videoed since it hasn't happened yet.  And there were no cameras when Antiochus did his thing.

So it must be just a "documentary" about what some commentator thinks will happen.

When are you going to explain where souls of believers go after death?  Or, do you even know?  

[Charlie744]

Ok, just got back and noticed there is a ton of activity in this topic…. Which is ALWAYS nice to see! And, of course, there are more than a few interpretations. 
 

I really would not want to try and offer my opinion on so many sub-topics within this post because I believe that seldom is anything accomplished. Just too many important issues that are / can be brought into one’s response and then things start branching off it all sorts of directions. 
 

So, I am requesting, if you folks do not mind that we might select just one of the interpretations that have been mentioned and try and focus on it. 
 

It seems they mostly are found in Daniel, consequently, which verse or issue in Daniel would / should we tackle first?

Thanks, look forward to your reply, Charlie 

[Shilohsfoal]

22 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

No, he NEVER said that.  Or prove your claim with book, chapter and verse, if you actually have one.

It is very clear to me that you are not very familiar with the resurrection of all believers.  And you got your citation WRONG.  The verse is in 2 Thess 2:1.  In this verse, Paul makes clear that the "gathering", which is what Paul described in 1 Thess 4:13-17, includes ALL believers from Adam forward.

How do I know that?  Paul told me.  1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

I like to color code verses, for easier understanding.  1 Cor 15 is the resurrection chapter.  So the subject in v.23 is about resurrection.

The red words state clearly that Jesus Christ is the FIRST human to be resurrected into an immortal glorified body.  So, what about all the citations in the OT and NT about people coming back to life from the dead?  They simply returned to their physical resuscitated bodies, only to die again, even though the Bible doesn't specifically state that.  

But the proof of all this is found in Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

How could Dr Luke write that Jesus was "the FIRST to rise from the dead", given all the citations of people coming back to life?  Simple.  Jesus was the FIRST to receive a glorified immortal body.  That proves that all the others would die again, because they DIDN'T receive an immortal body when they came back to life.  So Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from the dead, died again.  Or Dr Luke was lying.  He wasn't.

The blue words in 1 Cor 15:23 refer to the TIMING of the resurrection of the saints, which is WHEN He comes.

Every mention of the "coming" of Jesus, etc refers to the Second Advent.

Heb 9:28 - so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

This was written AFTER the First Advent of Christ.  So, "appear a second time" refers specifically to the Second Advent.  So EVERY mention of Christ coming is about the Second Advent.  2 Thess 2:1 clearly links the Second Advent with the gathering of all saints.

The green words refer to EVERY SAVED PERSON from Adam forward.

Or, prove from Scripture that there are saved people who don't belong to Jesus.  

So 1 Cor 15:23 is very clear.  Jesus gets the FIRST glorified immortal body.  Then, at the Second Advent, EVERY saved person receives their glorified immortal body.

Of course not.  The Second Advent will occur at the end of the Tribulation.  

So you saying that Paul is wrong and he will not be gathered to Christ at his coming?

 

2 Thes 1

 

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

[Shilohsfoal]

22 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

I don't deal.  If you want to PROVE your claims, then cite the references, if you actually have any.

Since you keep "forgetting" to do that, I suspect that you really don't have any.

That's like telling me to "read the Bible" to find a specific doctrine.  It is now rather obvious that you don't have clear Scripture or you would have cited them by now.

And some video.  Made by who?  The future abomination that causes desolation cannot be videoed since it hasn't happened yet.  And there were no cameras when Antiochus did his thing.

So it must be just a "documentary" about what some commentator thinks will happen.

When are you going to explain where souls of believers go after death?  Or, do you even know?  

Ok,you don't want to hear the word of God as written by the prophet Daniel ,then no one will force you.

 

You can continue reading false doctrines written by non prophets of God.

Edited February 23, 2024 by Shilohsfoal

[Shilohsfoal]

21 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Ok, just got back and noticed there is a ton of activity in this topic…. Which is ALWAYS nice to see! And, of course, there are more than a few interpretations. 
 

I really would not want to try and offer my opinion on so many sub-topics within this post because I believe that seldom is anything accomplished. Just too many important issues that are / can be brought into one’s response and then things start branching off it all sorts of directions. 
 

So, I am requesting, if you folks do not mind that we might select just one of the interpretations that have been mentioned and try and focus on it. 
 

It seems they mostly are found in Daniel, consequently, which verse or issue in Daniel would / should we tackle first?

Thanks, look forward to your reply, Charlie 

Well Charley.As you can see from the op,there are many interpretations that are false .Some people actually don't read the book of Daniel but would Insted read commentaries about the prophecies of Daniel preferring to not hear the word which was given.In a case such as this, one can be easily mislead and can mislead other people as well.

Which do you prefer to read Charlie, the word of God or commentaries wich can be false interpretations which some believe to be history?

If you interested more in the word of God itself then who is it that actually sets up the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel?

Have you read about it?