A WIFE MUST SUBMIT TO HER HUSBAND AS THE CHURCH IS SUBMITTED TO THE LORD.

[Mr. M]

38 minutes ago, Slibhin said:

I have no view because I don't believe in the New Testament.

Paul was a Pharisee-trained Rabbi from the school of Gamaliel in Jerusalem, and was applying Jewish instructions to a Church of Jew and Gentile. There was no useful instructions from Gentile tradition.

Everything Paul taught on these matters is Jewish thought, and there was no "New Testament" as you are using the term, i.e. as a set of books that you do not consider inspired. There is the belief in a New Covenant, but that is not at issue here.

Paul taught from the Tanakh, that fact is inescapable. Many Jewish women today who are married to strictly Orthodox husbands shave their heads and wear wigs. This is also a fact. I do not easily see how this derives from the Torah, and yet Paul is instructing wives under the New Covenant and offering some explanation. It still seems like Talmudic to me.

You advised "staying in our lane". I was simply seeking a view on this from yours. If you prefer to pull over to the shoulder, that is fine. But not believing in the New Testament is a strange reason not to comment on what is clearly Jewish thought, not Greek. 

[Who me]

On 3/20/2024 at 3:15 PM, Born4Jesus said:

Wives, place yourselves under your husbands’ authority as you have placed yourselves under the Lord’s authority.
23 The husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of the church. It is his body, and he is its Savior.
24 As the church is under Christ’s authority, so wives are under their husbands’ authority in everything.

Here we go yet another pretext for abuse.

Why won't  these know alls actually  read the contex

Verse 21 say submit to one another and verse 25 says, Husbands love your wife as Christ loved the church, giving up everything for her.

 

It is only in this context that wives are to obey a husband who will give up everything for her.

Come on you " know all, wife abusers" explain who has power in such a relatio ship?

[Mr. M]

8 hours ago, Slibhin said:

I don't care what Paul said because he was a Christian, and regardless he was not quoting Jewish law but the culture of his time. On top of that the Talmud actually says not to shave our heads.

Head shaving is mostly a Hasidic practice and not even all Hasidic women do it. The main source for that practice is from the Zohar, and I don't believe in or have any regard for Kabbalah. My obligation is only to cover my hair once I am married, which I did with a tichel. There is not real law or guidelines for how we cover our hair, so it's up to the woman.

I am not required, nor is any Jewish woman regardless of her Kohen status, to shave our heads. Women are however encouraged to remove their body hair. How is that for trivia?

Good answer. Thanks 

[enoob57]

On 3/20/2024 at 12:30 PM, ladypeartree said:

and those of us who are n0t married ????/

should be quiet and submit to enoob's last 

[RdJ]

12 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Interesting that you have posted that way, since most

responses reflect on the mutual nature of responsibility!

1 Peter 3:

1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, 

2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. 

3 Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel— 

4 rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God. 

5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, 

6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror.

Any thoughts on why Sarah would address Abraham Lord?

Peter goes on to say that daughters of Abraham should follow that example.

Again, the spiritual component must come out, this is not simply about social customs.

7 Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered.

Combine this with Paul's statement:

1 Corinthians 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power (authority) on her head because of the angels.

This should bring to our attention that a wife, in particular, who submits to her husband in obedience to the Word of God are the most powerful of prayer warriors.

Whenever the submission of wives comes up, many women fire back the husband's obligations, which many men quickly acknowledge as evident. Here is the problem with this almost stereotypical discussion:

I have heard countless times women state that they will submit to their husbands when they start acting like godly men. As if their obedience comes in measure to the faithfulness of the men in godly pursuits. 

The fatal flaw becomes obvious; which is easier, to submit in obedience to God's Word and have an open channel to the Throne by which she can empower her husband?

Or go on in rebellion and watch the husband fail. 

My view is that the woman is in the more powerful position spiritually, especially if they expect the man to fulfill his obligations to his family, which involves more direct dealings with the world, at least in the "traditional" roles, which women gleefully undermine in the world, and in most churches in the world.

I could not stand these dominant women in church. One couple asked us to do marriage counselling. I just walked away and played with their teen sons cause I couldn't stand it anymore. He worked at the other side of the country, so he had a car. She worked part time around the corner and had a small car. They couldnt pay 2. 1 had to go. So his car had to go. I said: Do you even want to save your marriage? Why? He can borrow mine if I don't need it. Mkay bye. Had a lot of fun with their teens. Another one, her husband had to do exactly what she said. Total Jezebel Jinglebell narcissist. She was also cheating with other men he found out later. LOL so I gave her that book from the wife of a baptist preacher. Really old fashioned and she basically says: you have to always obey. It's called: Me? Obey him? With a picture of a woman on the front in servant clothes. For instance she said: if he throws his dirty socks around the house you have to joyfully pick them up and not nag. Lol so I gave that to her after she complained that he did everything wrong. LOL she was maaaaaad.

 

Edited March 22, 2024 by RdJ

[RdJ]

2 hours ago, Who me said:

Here we go yet another pretext for abuse.

Why won't  these know alls actually  read the contex

Verse 21 say submit to one another and verse 25 says, Husbands love your wife as Christ loved the church, giving up everything for her.

 

It is only in this context that wives are to obey a husband who will give up everything for her.

Come on you " know all, wife abusers" explain who has power in such a relatio ship?

No he also says it to those with an unbelieving husband to save him without words and actually to everyone, but if a guy is controlling it can become unhealthy and abusive, but nowadays there are loads of women who boss their husband or ex around. Who's gonna help those guys? The texts are good for women who are the boss in the house to get more balance. In the Me? Obey him? book she had an example of a friendly woman, not a control freak, but the man was very soft and she was just the one who told the kids what to do. Then she heard that she had to obey and get away from the steering wheel and let him lead and she laughed but said okay and did it. When the teens would ask her if something was okay to do she said: Ask your dad. And then he did it and he did a good job and she loved it. Or Lisa Bevere, the wife of John Bevere. She said that she controlled it and she did sound borderline. He would let her do it and she would get crazy and scream and once he locked her up in the garage because she screamed so insane. The kid didnt listen. She wanted to kill him and then she came to her senses and repented and she let go of the controlling and let him lead and then she was free. It was an amazing testimony. Eve opened the door to satan and thats exactly what a woman does if she wants to play the boss. You open the door for a demon of control who takes over.

[deva1]

13 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Interesting that you have posted that way, since most

responses reflect on the mutual nature of responsibility!

1 Peter 3:

1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, 

2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. 

3 Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel— 

4 rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God. 

5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, 

6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror.

Any thoughts on why Sarah would address Abraham Lord?

Peter goes on to say that daughters of Abraham should follow that example.

Again, the spiritual component must come out, this is not simply about social customs.

7 Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered.

Combine this with Paul's statement:

1 Corinthians 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power (authority) on her head because of the angels.

This should bring to our attention that a wife, in particular, who submits to her husband in obedience to the Word of God are the most powerful of prayer warriors.

Whenever the submission of wives comes up, many women fire back the husband's obligations, which many men quickly acknowledge as evident. Here is the problem with this almost stereotypical discussion:

I have heard countless times women state that they will submit to their husbands when they start acting like godly men. As if their obedience comes in measure to the faithfulness of the men in godly pursuits. 

The fatal flaw becomes obvious; which is easier, to submit in obedience to God's Word and have an open channel to the Throne by which she can empower her husband?

Or go on in rebellion and watch the husband fail. 

My view is that the woman is in the more powerful position spiritually, especially if they expect the man to fulfill his obligations to his family, which involves more direct dealings with the world, at least in the "traditional" roles, which women gleefully undermine in the world, and in most churches in the world.

I would agree the man following God's word and protecting and leading the married couple with both using the gifts God has given them is the best situation. Encouraging both to be the people they were created to be. It works ! Been married 30 plus years. 

Sadly I've witnessed many men in a church setting using this 'men have authority ' arguement to belittle and even abuse women. I'm sure you would agree that there are some men who use it as part of coercive control to justify ungodly, abusive behaviour. Of course there are also controlling women who like to belittle and dominate men and use that in an ungodly way to gain power and influence. 

My opinion is God's way works ( no surprise there) but this area is often misquoted, misused to fulfill an individual's agenda and we need to be aware of that .

[Mr. M]

4 hours ago, Who me said:

Here we go yet another pretext for abuse.

Why won't  these know alls actually  read the contex

Verse 21 say submit to one another and verse 25 says, Husbands love your wife as Christ loved the church, giving up everything for her.

 

It is only in this context that wives are to obey a husband who will give up everything for her.

Come on you " know all, wife abusers" explain who has power in such a relatio ship?

There is abuse of power in all walks of society, from politicians to priesthood. When both halves of a marriage are committed to going God's way, I would say the wife is in the place of power spiritually, having an unhindered prayer ministry. (see earlier post)

[Mr. M]

14 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Interesting that you have posted that way, since most

responses reflect on the mutual nature of responsibility!

1 Peter 3:

1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, 

2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. 

3 Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel— 

4 rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God. 

5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, 

6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror.

Any thoughts on why Sarah would address Abraham Lord?

Peter goes on to say that daughters of Abraham should follow that example.

Again, the spiritual component must come out, this is not simply about social customs.

7 Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered.

Combine this with Paul's statement:

1 Corinthians 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power (authority) on her head because of the angels.

This should bring to our attention that a wife, in particular, who submits to her husband in obedience to the Word of God are the most powerful of prayer warriors.

Whenever the submission of wives comes up, many women fire back the husband's obligations, which many men quickly acknowledge as evident. Here is the problem with this almost stereotypical discussion:

I have heard countless times women state that they will submit to their husbands when they start acting like godly men. As if their obedience comes in measure to the faithfulness of the men in godly pursuits. 

The fatal flaw becomes obvious; which is easier, to submit in obedience to God's Word and have an open channel to the Throne by which she can empower her husband?

Or go on in rebellion and watch the husband fail. 

My view is that the woman is in the more powerful position spiritually, especially if they expect the man to fulfill his obligations to his family, which involves more direct dealings with the world, at least in the "traditional" roles, which women gleefully undermine in the world, and in most churches in the world.

@Who me

[RdJ]

15 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Here is the problem with this almost stereotypical discussion:

I have heard countless times women state that they will submit to their husbands when they start acting like godly men. As if their obedience comes in measure to the faithfulness of the men in godly pursuits. 

The fatal flaw becomes obvious; which is easier, to submit in obedience to God's Word and have an open channel to the Throne by which she can empower her husband?

Or go on in rebellion and watch the husband fail. 

My view is that the woman is in the more powerful position spiritually, especially if they expect the man to fulfill his obligations to his family, which involves more direct dealings with the world, at least in the "traditional" roles, which women gleefully undermine in the world, and in most churches in the world.

 It depends on the persons. In my mom's case yes, but he was not saved, so you give your life for the unsaved. She also did not care that a guy at work hit her because she read the Bible there before starting in a room alone.  She got him saved and found him a good church. A man can do the exact same thing.

What if she is nasty and disobedient? Does he then want to lay down his life for her like Christ?

It goes both ways. It's always easier to pray for someone who is kind to you.

What if he forbids her to pray? That's how I stopped praying. If a woman forbids a man to pray he is stronger and can tell her to shut up.

Edited March 22, 2024 by RdJ