God's historic national rods of His wrath, discipline and purification of Israel and what that may portend.

[Shilohsfoal]

51 minutes ago, Jonathan Dane said:

I am exiting the weeds. (These conversations only end when one does.)

General observation: Your hermeneutic does not align with a single biblical scholar I am aware of. That does not make it wrong but only suspect.

Your applications of these passages contain novel and specific (detailed) application, as when you say, "the beast attacks the U.S." These kinds of statements are not inherent to the text themselves (exegesis) but are the conclusion of presuppositions that stem from your novel system of interpretation, resulting in eisegesis. Why does the Beast attack the U.S.? Because your foregone presumption based on your "system" demands that it does. I think your foregone conclusions are incorrect. And when I try to show you that from the text, you move on to the next "proof text." No offense intended, but I have had a ministry to the cults for years. I've seen this tactic often.

My basic hermeneutic and system of theology aligns with those found at seminaries such as Dallas Theological and Grace Seminary in Southern California, which align with dispensational theology from its inception. Where I vary is on the minutia—identifying the AC before the Rapture. That's pretty much it. 

At the end of the day, I will sooner pin Jello to a wall than pin you down. Again, I am all too familiar with these kinds of exchanges.

I mean you no offense. I appreciate your passion and interest. I just think you have some fundamental weaknesses in your hermeneutic, and hence, your system.

The beast from the abyss attacks the US right here.Its because you believe the beast that ascends from the abyss is the king of the north,you can't understand who attacks the king of the north.lol

Perhaps you should try to understand the past before trying to understand the future.Read about the the US /Iraq wars in the bible and you might start understanding more.

 

 

Daniel 11:40

At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood.

 

Daniel 11:44

But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many.

 

This is when the US armed forces place the abomination that causes desolation.(Nuke)

 

 

Look closely and you can see the lake of fire.

 

"And they ascended into heaven in a cloud."

Edited April 5 by Shilohsfoal

[Charlie744]

21 minutes ago, Jonathan Dane said:

"And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary." (Daniel 9:26)

 Three questions:

1.) Who are the "people of the prince?"
2.) Who is this "prince to come?"
3.) Is it possible that the people and the prince are separated by a distance of time?
 

The “people” of the prince to come represent the people of pagan Rome. These “people” will be those that fall under Titus and destroy Israel in 70 AD. 
 

The “prince who is to come” is the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8. At the time of the total destruction of Israel in 70 AD, this “little horn” was found to be coming out of the 4th beast kingdom ON THE HEELS OF THE 10 horns. Meaning, they were at the bottom of the growing church. They represented those Gentiles that would come to accept Jesus as their Lird and Savior (only some 400 years later, this same church would be taken over by these Gentiles. When the power struggle ended between the 4 major Christian centers (after the demise of Imperial Rome), those being Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria and Rome, the bishop of Rome would win the thrown. Soon to be identified as the papacy (little horn).

So yes, there clearly is a time difference of some 400 years from the beginning of the church AFTER THE CROSS, to the time when papal  Rome would come to full power. The “people” of the coming prince were still under pagan Rome at 70 AD… but that would change when papal Rome took the reigns. 
 

[Jonathan Dane]

5 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Thanks Jonathan,

That`s right it is not in that symbolic beastly description, but else where in God`s word.

We know from scripture where the anti-Christ will arise & what his nationality is. We are also told that he is an Assyrian. Now this is a nationality even today. Andre Agassi, the famous tennis player is of  Assyrian descent.

 

Details of the anti-Christ –

 

His nationality – Assyrian.  (Isa. 31: 8     Micah 5: 5)

The region he comes from – the Ancient Assyrian Empire. (Dan. 11: 35 – 43)

Leader of Ancient Assyrian region -  Iraq, Syria & Jordan. (Dan. 7: 8)

Leader of Islamic Federation – 10 kings of Islam. (Dan. 7: 8,   Rev. 17: 12)

He rules the world – (Rev. 16: 13 & 14,     19: 19)

 

 

 

 

Yes, he does go by the title of The Assyrian. He also goes by the title of The King of Babylon, The King of Tyre, the prince of Israel, and the Prince to come (Rome).

King Herod was the king of Israel. What was his nationality? He was an Edomite. Abraham was the Father of Israel. Where was he from? Ur of Chaldea. And where was Moses born? In Egypt.

You are making a fundamental error by forcing details concerning Old Testament "types" of the Antichrist onto their anti-type— THE Antichrist. Moses was also a type of Christ (Deut 18:15). Does that mean Christ would be born in Egypt? Moses was also a murderer. Does that mean that Christ will also be a murderer?

The typology concerning "The Assyrian" does not require the end-time Antichrist to be native to Assyria any more than it does he be from Babylon, Tyre, Israel, or Rome (Daniel 9:26). Will he have some association with those places? Yes, but not necessarily native to them. Incidentally, do you know where the Assyrians are said to have migrated? To an area in Germany where Donald Trump's ancestors lived. How about that?

Isa 31:8: Its primary application is historical when Babylon conquered Assyria in the 6th century B.C.

Micah 5:5: There are direct prophetic implications. But it does not demand that he be native to the geographical location. 

Daniel 11:35-45: Says nothing about him coming from "the Ancient Assyrian Empire." In fact, the (historical) Little Horn is Antiochus Epiphanes, who ruled in the Seleucid Dynasty (Greece), a forerunner to the end-time Little Horn, the Antichrist.

Dan. 7: 8, Rev. 17: 12: Neither passage says anything about an Islamic Federation. Islam is a religion, not a "kingdom." When someone suggests an Islamic Kingdom, my first question is, "Which one? Most of the fighting in the world is between Muslims and Muslims. God called Ishmael's descendants "donkeys."

But indeed, the Antichrist rules the world for a short time. And Donald Trump is on his way. And America, with the help of people like Elon Musk, is the likeliest platform to launch such aspirations.

[Jonathan Dane]

6 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

The “people” of the prince to come represent the people of pagan Rome. These “people” will be those that fall under Titus and destroy Israel in 70 AD. 
 

The “prince who is to come” is the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8. At the time of the total destruction of Israel in 70 AD, this “little horn” was found to be coming out of the 4th beast kingdom ON THE HEELS OF THE 10 horns. Meaning, they were at the bottom of the growing church. They represented those Gentiles that would come to accept Jesus as their Lird and Savior (only some 400 years later, this same church would be taken over by these Gentiles. When the power struggle ended between the 4 major Christian centers (after the demise of Imperial Rome), those being Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria and Rome, the bishop of Rome would win the thrown. Soon to be identified as the papacy (little horn).

So yes, there clearly is a time difference of some 400 years from the beginning of the church AFTER THE CROSS, to the time when papal  Rome would come to full power. The “people” of the coming prince were still under pagan Rome at 70 AD… but that would change when papal Rome took the reigns. 
 

744: At the time of the total destruction of Israel in 70 AD, this “little horn” was found to be coming out of the 4th beast kingdom ON THE HEELS OF THE 10 horns. Meaning, they were at the bottom of the growing church. They represented those Gentiles that would come to accept Jesus as their Lird and Savior (only some 400 years later, this same church would be taken over by these Gentiles.

JD: I'm sorry, that is the most bizarre interpretation I have ever heard—no offense. I'll ask you what I asked Shilohsfoal. Can you name one scholar or seminary that shares that view? It is SO FAR off the reservation I don't know where to begin. I'm tapping out here. 

[Charlie744]

25 minutes ago, luigi said:

Why ask me why the Lord chooses to describe the times before the end of the current unjust world under Satan, where injustices are increasing daily throughout the world?

It seems to be a topic the Lord expounds upon (as The Day of the Lord) throughout many books in the bible. It does all lead, however, to the new day where Christ commences to reign.

Again, the book of Daniel is all about the coming Messiah and His plan of restoration for His people AND His plan of salvation for all mankind. 
 

He is NOT describing the “end times” but the times  from 606 BC to (largely) the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. The 4 kingdoms, the different visions and the prophecies all speak WITHIN these years. 
 

Tell me, as I mentioned, it appears your interpretations count on the AOD BEING AN END TIME PROPHECY. But you have to be able to identify what it is and why!

This is what almost all of today’s accepted interpretations rely on - they have yet to happen so we really can only guess what they are… 

But the overriding issue is that Daniel was written for HIS PEOPLE AND HIS CITY. It would affect / impact/ be so relevant to them as they were to make their journey back from the Babylonian captivity. Only the last few verses in chapter 21 and all of chapter 12 speak (broadly) of the end times (from when the little horn appropriated His earthly church around 500 AD to His return). 
 

Meaning, the AOD IS NOT AN END TIME EVENT BUT IT OCCURRED WITHIN THE LAST WEEK OF THE 70 WEEKS OF YEARS PROPHECY. 
 

WHO or what and why is your identification of the AOD? It is at the center of all your end time interactions?

[Charlie744]

3 minutes ago, Jonathan Dane said:

744: At the time of the total destruction of Israel in 70 AD, this “little horn” was found to be coming out of the 4th beast kingdom ON THE HEELS OF THE 10 horns. Meaning, they were at the bottom of the growing church. They represented those Gentiles that would come to accept Jesus as their Lird and Savior (only some 400 years later, this same church would be taken over by these Gentiles.

JD: I'm sorry, that is the most bizarre interpretation I have ever heard—no offense. I'll ask you what I asked Shilohsfoal. Can you name one scholar or seminary that shares that view? It is SO FAR off the reservation I don't know where to begin. I'm tapping out here. 

Of course I can’t! As I have mentioned at least a million times, approximately 99 % of today’s accepted interpretations of Daniel (not just this particular topic) follow the 7 year tribulation or gap theory and ALSO place MOST OF DANIEL AS END TIME EVENTS. 
 

I spent the last 5 years learning what are “today’s accepted interpretations” for the 12 chapters in Daniel since I knew NOTHING of Daniel and was instructed to learn Daniel if I wanted to understand Revelation. I never read Daniel prior to that. 
 
After realizing that there were largely two major camps on Daniel -(even though I don’t use labels since there is hardly ANY consistency within ANY IF THE TWO LABELS), some might call them “preterist,” while the polar opposite camp might be identified as “futuristis.” Again, regardless of either side of the fence the “scholars or academics or theologians” resided, there was ABSOLUTELY NO CONSISTENCY OR CONSENSUS AMONG THEM. 
 

Not only that, but each camp left MANY verses within Daniel uninterrupted or unaddressed and their interpretations / findings in the later chapters of Daniel were in conflict with the earlier interpretations of Daniel. 
 

Both camps are a mess and NEITHER CAMP FOCUSES ON THE TRUE SUBJECT OF DANIEL- The coming Messiah and His plan of Sal and restoration. 
 
Instead, both camps focus on the “secular” interpretations - whether it is Antiochus for the preterists or some mythical anti-Christ figure in the future. Some even make a living at generating their own story of the end times with characters like Trump, or the EU, or Islam etc. 

Consequently, I studied Daniel for those 5 years with the two overriding principles:

1) this is not a series of interpretations that will follow OUR VERY FLAWED HISTORY BOOKS. Instead, these are God’s prophecies about His first coming and His plan of salvation for mankind. (Not about the 4 kingdoms).

2) Look for the Messiah within these prophecies - Daniel is being given to us to reveal His first coming. 
 

In order for you or anyone to appreciate these truly new interpretations, one MUST BEGIN IN CHAPTER 2 - which is God’s blueprint for the 4 kingdoms and how He has given us His borders and boundaries found within chapter 2 to insure our interpretations in the later chapters of Daniel stay within these 4 kingdoms and their periods. 
 

 

[Charlie744]

@Jonathan Dane If you would like me too send you an author’s copy of the “New Interpretations of the Book of Daniel” at no cost to you, please send me a PM with your contact (mailing) information and I will have it sent to you directly from Amazon. 
 

 

[Jonathan Dane]

4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

I believe that people of the Prince are the Muslims.

And the Prince, the leader is the anti-Christ.

No, for the city, Jerusalem does not get destroyed, till at the end of the tribulation. (Zech. 14: 2)

Your interpretation effectively robs Daniel of a prophecy that was fulfilled in 70 A.D.

"And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war." (Daniel 9:26)

The "people of the prince" who destroyed the temple were the Romans in 70 A.D. 

There is no indication in all of Scripture whatsoever of a Muslim or even an Arab confederation "destroying the temple." In fact, I am aware of no Scripture that indicates the third (Tribulation) temple will be destoruyed at all. Yes, it will be desecrated by the Antichrist.

Ezekiel 38 and 39 depict a federation of Arab nations led by presumably Russia and Iran. But they are IMMEDIATELY wiped out by God in an instant.

Muslims destroying the temple is an invention out of whole cloth. There is not one verse that supports it.

And by the way, Zechariah 14:2 does NOT indicate that Jerusalem will be destroyed. Attacked? Yes. Destroyed? No.

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, Jonathan Dane said:

Yes, he does go by the title of The Assyrian. He also goes by the title of The King of Babylon, The King of Tyre, the prince of Israel, and the Prince to come (Rome).

King Herod was the king of Israel. What was his nationality? He was an Edomite. Abraham was the Father of Israel. Where was he from? Ur of Chaldea. And where was Moses born? In Egypt.

You are making a fundamental error by forcing details concerning Old Testament "types" of the Antichrist onto their anti-type— THE Antichrist. Moses was also a type of Christ (Deut 18:15). Does that mean Christ would be born in Egypt? Moses was also a murderer. Does that mean that Christ will also be a murderer?

The typology concerning "The Assyrian" does not require the end-time Antichrist to be native to Assyria any more than it does he be from Babylon, Tyre, Israel, or Rome (Daniel 9:26). Will he have some association with those places? Yes, but not necessarily native to them. Incidentally, do you know where the Assyrians are said to have migrated? To an area in Germany where Donald Trump's ancestors lived. How about that?

Isa 31:8: Its primary application is historical when Babylon conquered Assyria in the 6th century B.C.

Micah 5:5: There are direct prophetic implications. But it does not demand that he be native to the geographical location. 

Daniel 11:35-45: Says nothing about him coming from "the Ancient Assyrian Empire." In fact, the (historical) Little Horn is Antiochus Epiphanes, who ruled in the Seleucid Dynasty (Greece), a forerunner to the end-time Little Horn, the Antichrist.

Dan. 7: 8, Rev. 17: 12: Neither passage says anything about an Islamic Federation. Islam is a religion, not a "kingdom." When someone suggests an Islamic Kingdom, my first question is, "Which one? Most of the fighting in the world is between Muslims and Muslims. God called Ishmael's descendants "donkeys."

But indeed, the Antichrist rules the world for a short time. And Donald Trump is on his way. And America, with the help of people like Elon Musk, is the likeliest platform to launch such aspirations.

Thank you for looking at each of the scriptures and commenting. Perhaps we can have a closer look at them.

Isa. 31: 5 & 8. The context is when the Lord and His angelic army –

`….come down to fight for Mount Zion and for its hill. Like flying birds about, so will the Lord of hosts defend Jerusalem. Defending He will also deliver it; passing over, He will preserve it. `

And that is at the end of the tribulation when the Lord passes over Mount Zion and lands on the Mount of Olives.

`For I will gather all the nations top battle against Jerusalem; the city shall be taken, the houses rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, but the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nation, as He fights in the day of battle. And in the day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east.` (Zech. 14: 2 – 4)

 

Dan. 11: 35 – 45. So, we both agree that when Alexander the Great died his kingdom was divided between the four generals and the north region came under the Seleucid Dynasty which is the old Assyrian region. Daniel is directed in 11: 40 to jump two thousand years until the `Time of the End.`

`At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind…`

Thus, the King of the North is the region of the Assyrian`s power base at first.

And as you stated he is also called the king of Babylon. And that is where God`s word tells us that he sets up his headquarters. And did you know that the city of Babylon is being built again. Yes, the UN and the USA are rebuilding ancient Babylon again and have been for many years. It is a very popular tourist attraction.

 

Dan. 7: 8. The description of the terrifying beast fits Islam. Yes, it is a religion but it also is a Political force. The 10 horns are the 10 kings of Rev. 17: 12. They will be  –

-         Iraq, Syria & Jordan, (3)

-         Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Oman, Yemen, Saudi Arabia. (7)

They are waiting for their leader to arise to lead them.

 

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, Jonathan Dane said:

But indeed, the Antichrist rules the world for a short time. And Donald Trump is on his way. And America, with the help of people like Elon Musk, is the likeliest platform to launch such aspirations.

I don`t think you actually know what is ahead from God`s word.

1.     After the world goes against Israel and they finish this war, the Russian Federation plus Iran etc will come down to the Golan heights where God will deal with them.

2.Man of Peace steps in and makes a peace treaty with Israel. And because there is then a power vacuum in the Middle East with Iran and Russia `s army gone, the Islamic world will begin to arise. First the 3 nations of Iraq, Syria and Jordan, (Ancient Assyria) will become the power base for this person. Later when all the world goes after him the other 7 Islamic nation give their power to him.

3. The West is deceived by this person, (Dan. 8: 23 – 25) and thus East and West, especially their finances come together. You see the Islamic Finances do not allow for usury which the West is built and falls on. So, that will all come under a new way of operating.

 

As to the USA it owes trillions which can`t be paid back. They buy goods from other countries and pay with IOU`s in paper. The BRICS countries and others are now NOT using the dollar. So, it`s not long till the great spending spree the USA had while other countries held them up, is finished. And with their downfall will come the other Western countries and actually most of the world`s economies.

Still, when the central Banks across the world get fully operating with their CBDC`s they will all come under the IMF (International Mafia/Monetary Fund) which will become the Lender of Last resort. And since the CBDC`s (Central Bank`s Digital Currency`s) are programmable, then it is only a step to the Mark.

We are on the brink.