Before the "pre, mid post," what is your support scriptural for the SEVEN YEARS of tribulation?

[The Light]

12 minutes ago, BlindSeeker said:

Titus is not the one confirming the covenant, and note, it is a clearly stated to be a confirmation of the covenant, and not the establishing or breaking of one.

Absolutely correct.

12 minutes ago, BlindSeeker said:

Jesus is the Prince who confirms the covenant, for that is the reason Messiah came to the Jews.

 

Impossible.

Daniel 9

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

You have completely fallen off the trail. If your contention was correct, it would be the Jews that were destroying their own city and sanctuary.

So your contention is impossible. You need to rethink this. 

Additionally, it is a future Temple, one that has not been built as of yet that is going to be destroyed by the people of the prince that shall come.

[BlindSeeker]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Impossible.

No, just not conceivable by you yet.

And after threescore and two weeks [between 69th and the 70th week, [a 7 year duration, of which "in the midst of the week"], shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself [but for the sins of humanity. Yet, because of the rejection of the Jewish people as a nation] ...the people of the prince  [either the Prince of Peace, or Titus the prince, God's sovereignty at play],  that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

You have completely fallen off the trail. If your contention was correct, it would be the Jews that were destroying their own city and sanctuary.

Obviously you haven't read through Josephus and his historical account of those days. For the truth is, Titus and the Romans did everything they could to try and save Jerusalem, the temple, and the people. It was their own seditions that brought their destruction upon their heads.

I encourage you to read through it all, form the siege to the destruction. For Josephus records how 3 years prior to the siege, "it was a time of prosperity..." But, for your convenience, here are some excerpts for your immediate consideration...

 

Josephus – Wars Book 5 – Chap.1 – para. 1

THE SEDITIONS AT JERUSALEM AND WHAT TERRIBLE MISERIES AFFLICTED THE CITY BY THEIR MEANS;

WHEN therefore Titus had marched over that desert which lies between Egypt and Syria, in the manner forementioned, he came to Cesarea, having resolved to set his forces in order at that place, before he began the war. Nay, indeed, while he was assisting his father at Alexandria, in settling that government, which had been newly conferred upon them by God, it so happened that the sedition at Jerusalem was revived, and parted into three factions, and that one faction fought against the other; which partition in such evil cases may be said to be a good thing, and the effect of Divine justice. Now as to the attack the zealots made upon the people, and which I esteem the beginning of the city’s destruction, it hath been already explained after an accurate manner; as also whence it arose, and to how great a mischief it was increased. But for the present sedition, one should not mistake if he called it a sedition begotten by another sedition, and to be like a wild beast grown mad, which, for want of food from abroad, fell now upon eating its own flesh.

 

Josephus – Wars Book 5 – Chap. 1 – para. 3

3. But now the tyrant Simon, the son of Gioras, whom the people had invited in out of the hopes they had of his assistance in the great distresses they were in, having in his power the upper city, and a great part of the lower, did now make more vehement assaults upon John and his party, because they were fought against from above also; yet was he beneath their situation when he attacked them, as they were beneath the attacks of the others above them. Whereby it came to pass that John did both receive and inflict great damage, and that easily as he was fought against on both sides; and the same advantage that Eleazar and his party had over him since he was beneath them, the same advantage had he, by his higher situation, over Simon. On which account he easily repelled the attacks that were made from beneath by the weapons thrown from their hands only; but was obliged to repel those that threw their darts from the temple above him by his engines of war; for he had such engines as threw darts, and javelins, and stones, and that in no small number, by which he did not only defend himself from such as fought against him,  but slew moreover many of the priests, as they were about their sacred ministrations. For notwithstanding these men were mad with all sorts of impiety, yet did they still admit those that desired to offer their sacrifices, although they took care to search the people of their own country beforehand, and both suspected and watched them; while they were not so much afraid of strangers, who although they had gotten leave of them, how cruel soever they were to come into that court, were yet often destroyed by this sedition; for those darts that were thrown by the engines came with that force, that they went over all the buildings, and reached as far as the altar, and the temple itself, and fell upon the priests, and those that were about the sacred offices; insomuch that many persons who came thither with great zeal from the ends of the earth, to offer sacrifices at this celebrated place, which was esteemed holy by all mankind, fell down before their own sacrifices themselves, and sprinkled that altar which was venerable among all men, both Greeks and Barbarians, with their own blood; till the dead bodies of strangers were mingled together with those of their own country, and those of profane persons with those of the priests, and the blood of all sorts of dead carcasses stood in lakes in the holy courts themselves. And now, “O must wretched city, what misery so great as this didst you suffer from the Romans, when they came to purify you from your intestine hatred! ‘For you could be no longer a place fit for God, nor could you long continue in being, after you have been a sepulcher for the bodies of your own people, and have made the holy house itself a burying-place in this civil war of yours. Yet may you again grow better, if perchance you will hereafter appease the anger of that God who is now the author of your destruction.” 

 

Josephus – Wars Book 5 – Chap. 1 – para. 5

5. They agreed in nothing but this, to kill those that were innocent. The noise also of those that were fighting was incessant, both by day and by night; but the lamentations of those that mourned exceeded the other; nor was there ever any occasion for them to leave off their lamentations, because their calamities came perpetually one upon another, although the deep consternation they were in prevented their outward wailing; for being constrained by their fear to conceal their inward passions, they were inwardly tormented, without daring to open their lips in groans. Nor was any regard paid to those that were still alive, by their relations; nor was there any care taken of burial for those that were dead; the occasion of both which was this, that everyone despaired of himself; for those that were not among the seditious had no great desires of anything, as expecting for certain that they should very soon be destroyed; but for the seditious themselves, they fought against each other, while they trod upon the dead bodies as they lay heaped one upon another, and taking up a mad rage from those dead bodies that were under their feet they became the fiercer thereupon. They moreover were still inventing somewhat or other that was pernicious against themselves; and when they had resolved upon anything, they executed it without mercy, and omitted no method of torment or of barbarity.

 

Josephus – Wars Book 6 – Chap. 2 – para. 1

HOW TITUS PERSUADED JOSEPHUS TO EXHORT THE JEWS AGAIN [TO A SURRENDER]

“…I dare venture to promise that the Romans shall still forgive you. And take notice that I, who make this exhortation to thee, am one of your own nation; I, who am a Jew, do make this promise to thee. And it will become you to consider who I am that gives you this counsel, and whence I am derived; for while I am alive I shall never be in such slavery, as to forego my own kindred, or forget the laws of our forefathers. You have indignation at me again, and make a clamor at me, and reproach me; indeed I cannot deny that I am worthy of worse treatment than all this amounts to, because, in opposition to fate do I make this kind invitation to you, and endeavor to force deliverance upon those whom God has condemned. For who is there that does not know what the writings of the ancient prophets contain in them, – and particularly that oracle which is just now going to be fulfilled upon this miserable city? For they foretold that this city should be then taken when somebody shall begin the slaughter of his own countrymen. And are not both the city and the entire temple now full of the dead bodies of your countrymen? It is God, therefore, it is God himself who is bringing on this fire, to purge that city and temple by means of the Romans, and is going to pluck up this city, which is full of your pollutions"

 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Additionally, it is a future Temple, one that has not been built as of yet that is going to be destroyed by the people of the prince that shall come.

I disagree. Here's why... 

"The Destruction of the Temple, Will There Really Be A Third?"

 

Maybe you ought to rethink this as well...

Edited June 5, 2024 by BlindSeeker
grammar, added an after thought..

[The Light]

1 hour ago, BlindSeeker said:

No, just not conceivable by you yet.

And after threescore and two weeks [between 69th and the 70th week, [a 7 year duration, of which "in the midst of the week"], shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself [but for the sins of humanity. Yet, because of the rejection of the Jewish people as a nation] ...the people of the prince  [either the Prince of Peace, or Titus the prince, God's sovereignty at play],  that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The prince can't be Jesus because the Jews did not destroy Jerusalem or the Temple.

It also is not Titus. This is the Rider on the White Horse, the Antichrist, the 7th king.

1 hour ago, BlindSeeker said:

 

Obviously you haven't read through Josephus and his historical account of those days. For the truth is, Titus and the Romans did everything they could to try and save Jerusalem, the temple, and the people. It was their own seditions that brought their destruction upon their heads.

Interesting. I had read some of it long ago researching something. Thanks for posting it.

1 hour ago, BlindSeeker said:

 

I disagree. Here's why... 

"The Destruction of the Temple, Will There Really Be A Third?"

 

Maybe you ought to rethink this as well...

That Temple will be rebuilt soon as we know that when the man of sin is revealed he will sit in the temple of God shewing himself that he is God. And there's no need to post anything about "we are the Temple", as it does not apply.

2 Thes 2

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

[BlindSeeker]

24 minutes ago, The Light said:

That Temple will be rebuilt soon

I believe the "rebuilding of the temple" is a false prophetic mile stone propagated by lying spirits.

Not debating, just being honest.

 

26 minutes ago, The Light said:

That Temple will be rebuilt soon as we know that when the man of sin is revealed he will sit in the temple of God shewing himself that he is God. And there's no need to post anything about "we are the Temple", as it does not apply.

Just because you don't see the application doesn't mean "it does not apply." It simple "it does not apply" to your eschatology. But, it really isn't "your" eschatology....

Now, I know my response is long, and I'm sorry, I'm just trying to clear with out a lot of tit for tat posts and going off topic. And no, you don't have to read it, it's your call.

But just know that I once held your position as well. So, you can be dismissive and not read it, or red it and prove me wrong. I am open to sound biblical reasoning and correction. But you cannot just tell me I am wrong, or incorrect,  unless you lack a Berean spirit and a love for the brethren and the truth.

SO I start by asking you if you have heard of the French Catholic monk, Adso of Montier-en-Der who died in 992 A.D. He was a prolific writer of poems, hymns, and biographies of the lives of saints, but his perhaps most famous work was his “Letter to Queen Gerberga on the Place and Time of Antichrist,” which became known as the “Little Book on the Antichrist?” 

If not, maybe you should do some research...

Because at the time this theology articulated over a thousand years ago, it was rejected essentially by every protestant commentator who sought to defend the truth with their pen. For these early church fathers acknowledged Paul’s speaking in 2^nd Thessalonians 2:3 of “a falling away first” as being the rise of Roman Catholicism, and “that man of sin… the son of perdition” as the succession of popes.

However, their historical understanding of a spirit of antichrist that works to advance false prophets, teachers, and ideology, has for the most part been completely abandoned by modern non-Catholics believers today - most probably because most believers nowadays are ignorant of both history and scripture. Thus,  it would be prudent for an earnest seeker of the truth to ask what scriptural and historical justification those protestant commentators might of had for interpreting it the way they did.

Perhaps, part of the answer might be the cause of Paul’s decision to not write about the subject plainly and openly in his Second Epistle to the Thessalonians; but instead, chose only to allude to it by directing his readers to “remember” that which he had taught them when he was there with them. Why the vagueness?

2nd Thessalonians 2:5 – Remember you not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now you know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming. 

Don't you agree that with a matter of such significant importance, that Paul’s manner of writing here should leave one asking the question, “Why didn’t Paul just articulate these things again in more detail in his epistle?”

What could be his reason for not putting forth a clear and coherent teaching on this apostasy which the Holy Spirit had revealed to him was going to take place? Especially when Paul’s normal pattern in his epistles was to be very meticulous and thorough when presenting to the saints the oracles of God; yet here he goes no further than to write to them “Remember you not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?”

It is evident Paul must have felt it was wisdom, that instead of writing it out clearly and specifically, to simply trust the Holy Spirit to help them recall these pertinent things, for he continues with “you know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time.” Hence it seems evident that the Apostle Paul under the unction of the Holy Spirit was writing with great carefulness and was unwilling to formally document those things which he had obviously communicated to them in person. 

Plus, it should be obvious that in those days delivering a letter was considerably costlier, more laborious, and time-consuming than merely writing one; especially compared to the ease of email correspondence nowadays. So it wouldn’t have been prudent for Paul to be so vague in his letter unless it was intentional.

Also, with all his epistles, it is only in 2nd Thessalonians 2:5 that Paul can be found imploring his readers to “Remember you not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things,” making this a clear departure from Paul’s normal manner of wholly giving himself to clearly define “these things” whether in person or letter. Therefore, the Apostle Paul had to believe there was more wisdom in being vague and just petitioning them to recall, than there was in his establishing an official document outlining “these things” with Silvanus, Timothy and his name being attached to it.

It obvious he was confident they would recall what he had taught them in private and “know what withholds.” For though Paul openly preached to the Jews and Gentiles alike that Jesus was the Christ, there were some things that he knew should only be taught to those who by their rebirth and salvation would have a firm foundation of faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and could therefore be entrusted with some “meat” from God’s word. 

Also, remember those details recorded by Luke in Acts about the “Jews which believed not, and moved with envy, and took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.” This was no small commotion, for they “drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city,” and made serious life threatening charges against Paul, Silvanus, and Timotheus; that these whom Jason had received, “that have turned the world upside down, are come hither also… and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus.” 

These are not minor complaints, for these are accusations of treason against Caesar and Rome. Hence “they troubled the people and the rulers of the city, when they heard these things and when they had taken security of Jason and of the other, they let them go.”

Understanding the seriousness with which Rome dealt with those who were seditious and traitors against Caesar, a penalty of certain death, “the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea.” 

Plus, before their going to Thessalonica, Paul and Silas had been in Philippi where they had been beaten and accused of going against the customs of Rome there as well.  

Acts 16:20 – And brought them to the magistrates, saying, These men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city, 21 And teach customs, which are not lawful for us to receive, neither to observe, being Romans. 22 And the multitude rose up together against them: and the magistrates rent off their clothes, and commanded to beat them. 23 And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison, charging the jailor to keep them safely: 24 Who, having received such a charge, thrust them into the inner prison, and made their feet fast in the stocks. 

 Thus, it should be both understandable and obvious that the brethren had sound cause to greatly feared for the lives of Paul and Silas, and were therefore desirous to deliver them from any danger that might befall them based upon these new accusations. And yet, with reasonable confidence, we can be sure their apprehension was not based solely upon the events in Philippi or a few Thessalonian “Jews which believed not,” or those “certain lewd fellows of the baser sort.”

So, from both Paul’s epistle and Luke’s account in the Acts of the Apostles we can safely conclude they understood that there were many things on the horizon which were soon going to transpire concerning God’s judgment upon Israel. All this obviously being part of that to which he was referring by saying “Remember you not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?” It would in addition seem safe to conclude that Paul would have obviously articulated to them much of what he may have learned from Luke and others concerning what Jesus Christ had taught concerning the aforementioned “wrath to come.”  

Luke 19:43 – For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, 44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. 

However, Paul would have reinforced these words of Jesus with what was already written by the prophets when ministering to the Jews and devout Greeks which believed. Below are passages which very likely would have been addressed by Paul. 

Deuteronomy 28:49 – The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand; 50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor show favor to the young: 52 And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trusted, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. 

Isaiah 29:13 – Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near Me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor Me , but have removed their heart far from Me , and their fear toward Me is taught by the precept of men: 14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. 

Now, please, take careful note of the following two passages. For again in Acts chapter 13 we find Paul speaking using Habakkuk’s prophecy to warn the men of Israel of the “wrath to come.” 

Habakkuk 1:5 – Behold you among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously: for I will work a work in your days, which you will not believe, though it be told you. 6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwelling places that are not theirs. 7 They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves. 

Acts 13:16 – Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and you that fear God, give audience… 40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 41 Behold, you despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which you shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you. 

Quoting Habakkuk, Paul rebuked the Jews for being “despisers” of God’s word which was now being revealed to them through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Therefore, he warned them that they were going to perish just as those Jews did when the Chaldeans first destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. Yet we know from history that the coming destruction of which Paul was warning them was not going to be by the Chaldeans this time: rather Rome was going to be the instrument of God’s wrath whereby once more Zion was going to “be plowed as a field” and Jerusalem again destined to “become heaps.”

Paul could have easily been able to preach to the brethren at Thessalonica that after “the wrath to come” of God judging the Jews, that Rome too, like the three empires before it, would eventually fall. This is easy to see both in the depiction of Rome in Nebuchadnezzar’s vision of “a great image” that represented these four great empires and Daniel’s vision of the “four great beasts which came up from the sea, diverse one from another.” Simply stated, Paul could have easily reasoned from the scripture how Rome was goin to fall to make way for the rise of Roman Catholicism and the Papacy... 

Lastly, not this excerpt from Dedication Letter from the Translators to King James

"...that the zeal of Your Majesty toward the house of God doth not slack or go backward, but is more and more kindled, manifesting itself abroad in the farthest parts of Christendom, by writing in defense of the Truth [against the apostasy of Catholicism], (which hath given such a blow unto that man of sin [position of the papacy], as will not be healed,) ..."

[WilliamL]

On 6/5/2024 at 12:36 PM, The Light said:

The prince can't be Jesus because the Jews did not destroy Jerusalem or the Temple.

It also is not Titus. This is the Rider on the White Horse, the Antichrist, the 7th king.

Interesting. I had read some of it long ago researching something. Thanks for posting it.

That Temple will be rebuilt soon as we know that when the man of sin is revealed he will sit in the temple of God shewing himself that he is God. And there's no need to post anything about "we are the Temple", as it does not apply.

2 Thes 2

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The word mistranslated widely as "temple" is naos, which means a sanctified dwelling place. It could be merely a tent, as was the Mosaic Tabernacle, and the original structure David put up in Jerusalem. So no actual "building," in the sense that most people are expecting, would be needed to fulfill this prophecy.

The corresponding word in Hebrew is miqdash. Daniel used the term to refer to the spot of the then-destroyed sanctuary, the spot having no structure at all:

Daniel 9:17 “Now therefore, our God, hear the prayer of Your servant, and his supplications, and for the Lord's sake cause Your face to shine on Your miqdash, which is desolate."

Jesus, when prophesying of the Abomination of Desolation, said something similar:

Matt. 24;15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in a [not "the"] topo 'agio/holy place”...

Jesus did not call it even a naos...just "a holy place."

So to sum up: yes, this prophecy might refer to a building, but not necessarily. So it is best to keep an open mind about this, and not be found looking past the mark.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

The word mistranslated widely as "temple" is naos, which means a sanctified dwelling place. It could be merely a tent, as was the Mosaic Tabernacle, and the original structure David put up in Jerusalem. So no actual "building," in the sense that most people are expecting, would be needed to fulfill this prophecy.

The corresponding word in Hebrew is miqdash. Daniel used the term to refer to the spot of the then-destroyed sanctuary, the spot having no structure at all:

Daniel 9:17 “Now therefore, our God, hear the prayer of Your servant, and his supplications, and for the Lord's sake cause Your face to shine on Your miqdash, which is desolate."

Jesus, when prophesying of the Abomination of Desolation, said something similar:

Matt. 24;15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in a [not "the"] topo 'agio/holy place”...

Jesus did not call it even a naos...just "a holy place."

So to sum up: yes, this prophecy might refer to a building, but not necessarily. So it is best to keep an open mind about this, and not be found looking past the mark.

Excellent information William. I don't plan on being around when this event occurs, but this is truly excellent information.

Thanks

[WilliamL]

On 6/6/2024 at 4:38 PM, The Light said:

Excellent information William. I don't plan on being around when this event occurs, but this is truly excellent information.

Thanks

Unless you die beforehand, I am convinced you will be. The following verse describes what I believe will be the A.D.:

Daniel 11:45 “And he shall plant the tents of his pavilion between the seas at the glorious holy mountain [= the Temple Mount]; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him."

-- followed shortly thereafter by the events of the very next verses:

Daniel 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time. [= the Great Tribulation]
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.

2 And multitudes of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,

Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt. [= the resurrection of the dead]

Edited June 9, 2024 by WilliamL

[The Light]

15 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Unless you die beforehand, I am convinced you will be. The following verse describes what I believe will be the A.D.:

Daniel 11:45 “And he shall plant the tents of his pavilion between the seas at the glorious holy mountain [= the Temple Mount]; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him."

-- followed shortly thereafter by the events of the very next verses:

Daniel 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time. [= the Great Tribulation]
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.

2 And multitudes of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,

Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt. [= the resurrection of the dead]

I don't think the Church will be here at this time. I do think you are correct that this is the great tribulation. So it appears that the beast of the earth, the rider on the white horse, comes to his end around the time the great tribulation begins. At the end of the great tribulation Jesus will return and many of them that sleep in the ground shall be raised. This occurs at the harvest at the 6th seal. Jesus is returning IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days. Seen here.

Rev 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

At the harvest at the 6th seal, Jesus is returning for the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth. Those 144,000 are not sealed to go through the wrath of God, they are sealed because they are believers and will be the first fruits of the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal.

There are two raptures. 

Hosea 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The fathers of the Jews were to be the first fruits of the first harvest. But they served other Gods and the Gentiles become the first harvest, which is the grain harvest, barley and wheat. After the harvest the Jews will realize that they have missed the harvest.

Jerimiah 8

20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

There are two raptures, one before the great tribulation and one at the end of the great tribulation.

[WilliamL]

On 6/10/2024 at 7:27 AM, The Light said:

So it appears that the beast of the earth, the rider on the white horse, comes to his end around the time the great tribulation begins. At the end of the great tribulation Jesus will return and many of them that sleep in the ground shall be raised. This occurs at the harvest at the 6th seal.

The Beast comes after the 6th Seal Parousia and rapture and Great Tribulation; whereas the 1st Seal rider on the white horse = false christs and prophets comes before, during the GT.

As far as the harvests go, we have had this discussion before. One must distinguish between the firstfruits, the firstborn, and the full harvest. Each group has a different role in the End Times. Explained in detail here:

56. The Firstfruits and the Harvest 2.0; Part 1

An upgrade of article #24. Explains the prophetic application of OT laws about the firstfruits, the firstborn, and the full harvest, as these laws relate to the End Times. https://worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2686-the-firstfruits-and-the-harvest-20-part-1/

57. The Firstfruits and the Harvest 2.0; Part 2 https://worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2687-the-firstfruits-and-the-harvest-20-part-2/

[The Light]

17 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The Beast comes after the 6th Seal Parousia and rapture and Great Tribulation; whereas the 1st Seal rider on the white horse = false christs and prophets comes before, during the GT.

 

The Antichrist comes to his end BEFORE the great tribulation as we can see in the following scriptures. The Antichrist is the rider on the white horse.

Daniel 11

45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Daniel 12

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Wait just a minute. Most are going to claim that the Antichrist is cast into the pit with the beast of the sea. We already know that is incorrect because we have the above scriptures that say the Antichrist comes to his end before the great time of trouble.

Revelation 19

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

It is a scriptural fact that the Antichrist, rider on the white horse comes to his end before the great tribulation. It is also a scriptural fact that the beast of the sea and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. How can that possibly work. Is one of the scriptures wrong? No. There has to be an explanation.

Revelation 13

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

The beast of the earth has two horns. One horn is the Antichrist and the other horn is the false prophet. That's the only explanation I can see.