10 Steps to the End of this Age & Ushering in His Kingdom

[Keras]

19 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Nothing includes angels and Satan himself,

It says; no man.... not angels or Satan, who are spiritual beings. 

If you have to twist and re-interpret scripture to fit your beliefs, then your beliefs are wrong. 

The thing is that if there was a definitive Prophecy saying the Lord will take His people to heaven then I could view John 3:13 in a different light, but there isn't.  What there is; are many scriptures saying how we must endure until the end and what the Lord actually does plan for His people. 

The 'rapture to heaven' theory is a lie and many have been deceived by it, to their discredit. 

[luigi]

16 hours ago, Keras said:

 

The 'rapture to heaven' theory is a lie and many have been deceived by it, to their discredit. 

The rapture to heaven theory is and isn't a lie. If you believe that a bunch of believers are all going to whisked up to heaven and no longer be found on the earth;--that is a lie, and many people have been deceived by Satan to advocate this lie.

On the other hand; there are two other areas in addition to 1 Thessalonian 4:17, where we see individuals who are caught up to heaven and God, where afterwards we see these individuals still here on earth, thus indicating their ascension to heaven being a spiritual ascension. These are in 2 Corinthians 12:2 & 4; and Revelation 12:5 & 17. Confirming this spiritual ascension are numerous scriptures. One of my favorites is Isaiah 60:1-3, where we see the faithful receiving great enlightenment while the rest of the unfaithful world goes into great darkness.

 

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

 

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. 2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

[WilliamL]

23 hours ago, Keras said:

The thing is that if there was a definitive Prophecy saying the Lord will take His people to heaven then I could view John 3:13 in a different light, but there isn't. 

There are a number of such verses, and you have been shown them multiple times, and you have chosen to deny them.

On 6/23/2024 at 1:47 PM, Keras said:

The 'rapture to heaven' theory is a lie and many have been deceived by it, to their discredit. 

The lie is on the other foot, so to speak.

[Keras]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

There are a number of such verses, and you have been shown them multiple times, and you have chosen to deny them.

I deny them all, because there is not one; saying the Lord will take His people to heaven. 

That whole idea is preposterous and extremely pretentious, as we are on earth and we all have tasks to do here. There is no escape or removal Prophesied for us, as there wasn't for all who have gone before us.

How can we today believe we will be raptured outta here, when Christians were fed to the lions and burned alive? From what I see; people have less faith now!

[WilliamL]

On 6/24/2024 at 5:09 PM, Keras said:

I deny them all, because there is not one; saying the Lord will take His people to heaven.

Then you deny the testimony of the Word. Saints are in heaven now.

[Keras]

14 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Then you deny the testimony of the Word. Saints are in heaven now.

Please post the Words that I deny. Any scripture that actually says human people live in heaven.

I do not see the 24 Elders of Rev 4:4, as mortal humans. 

The Christian martyrs have their souls kept under the Altar in heaven, Rev 6:9-11, but they await the final Judgment, Rev 20:11-15, before receiving their immortal status. 

On 6/25/2024 at 12:47 AM, luigi said:

The rapture to heaven theory is and isn't a lie.

NONE of your quotes mention heaven as the destination of the Church. 

[luigi]

7 hours ago, Keras said:

 

NONE of your quotes mention heaven as the destination of the Church. 

Good day Keras,

As the kingdom of God (which is the kingdom of heaven), is within us (Luke 17:21); they who are then caught up to God in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, are spiritually caught up God and His throne as was the individual relating his experience to Paul in 2 Corinthians 12:2 & 4; and as will be the resulting man child in Revelation 12:5 & 17, (also described in Micah 5). This being caught up to God and His throne in heaven (spiritually) also appears in Isaiah 60:1-3, albeit without the wording of being caught up. You have to discern this spiritually.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

 

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. 2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

[Keras]

15 hours ago, luigi said:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Plainly, this will happen when Jesus Returns. Do the Christians go to heaven, while Jesus reigns on earth? No that catching up. is a horizontal transportation from where His people are; to Jerusalem, where He will be. As Matthew 24:30-31 says. 

We humans never go to heaven; after the Millennium, heaven comes to us. Revelation 21:1-7

Your other 2 quotes are irrelevant, just personal incidents. 

Edited June 30, 2024 by Keras

[luigi]

7 hours ago, Keras said:

Plainly, this will happen when Jesus Returns. Do the Christians go to heaven, while Jesus reigns on earth? No that catching up. is a horizontal transportation from where His people are; to Jerusalem, where He will be. As Matthew 24:30-31 says. 

We humans never go to heaven; after the Millennium, heaven comes to us. Revelation 21:1-7

Your other 2 quotes are irrelevant, just personal incidents. 

Good morning Keras,

Heaven is spiritual, whether in a physical body or out of a physical body. The catching up to God for the remnant survivors following the great tribulation in Revelation 12:17, will be their being in spiritual heaven on the earth while they are still in their physical bodies. This includes the remnant greatly enlightened in Isaiah 60:1-3, who are still in their physical bodies.

When Christ returns at the end of the great tribulation period, it is His Spirit that returns, and marries with the remnant survivors. This is the catching up in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, and Revelation 12:5. This is the great enlightening with Christ in Isaiah 60:1-3. Keep in mind also that when Christ returns, He does so with all the saints who have been slaughtered, and thus are they who are first caught up.

 

 

 

 

[WilliamL]

On 6/28/2024 at 10:39 PM, Keras said:

I do not see the 24 Elders of Rev 4:4, as mortal humans.

 

… And They Cannot Be Angels

The stephanoi upon the heads of these Elders are victors’ (i.e., overcomers’) chaplets, like as were awarded to winning athletes in Greece’s Olympic Games. Only Jesus Christ, and disciples of His who have overcome the sins of the flesh and of the Devil, are ever described in the New Testament as receiving such heavenly honors. Whereas angels are –

Hebrews 1:14 …all ministering spirits sent forth to minister to those who will inherit salvation.

God’s holy angels need no salvation, and therefore do not receive its rewards: only mortal men do. (Also, only individual men, never angels nor groups of men, are called elders in the Bible.) The following verses tell of stephanoi to be won and worn by Jesus and His saints: 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 2 Timothy 4:8; Hebrews 2:9; James 1:12; 1 Peter 5:4; Revelation 2:10, 3:11, 14:14.

excerpted from: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2945-the-24-elders-of-revelation-who-or-what-are-they-part-1/

 

What biblical evidence can you provide that these elders are not men??

And of course, they are no longer mortal men, but they once were, because that is how all men start out.