Justice at the judgement

[Desopixi Seilynam]

19 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

So, what is this "modern false doctrine"?  If you say OSAS, then obviously you do NOT believe what Jesus said, which I just shared with you.

That "inherit" and "enter" are referring to two different things.

The Mark 10:17 and 10:23 passage shows the most clearly that that notion is false.

Both inherit the kingdom and enter the kingdom are the same idea.

 

There are preachers that when reaching Galatians 5:21 will dismiss the clear warning from Paul
by saying how that "inherit the kingdom" is not the same as "enter the kingdom".

Paul makes clear however that those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh
with its passions and lusts. Galatians 5:24

We don't just live any old way and end up in heaven because we said a sincere prayer at some point in time.

People who really said a sincere prayer, will therefore live a certain way,
simply because they sincerely believe, and largely because the Holy Spirit will be in them.

 

He that does not keep my teachings does not LOVE me.
John 14:24

If any person does not LOVE the Lord Jesus Christ, let that person be Anathema, Oh Lord Come!
1 Corinthians 16:22

Why did Paul say that? What is he doing there?

People were giving him too much authority, some saying how that they are of Paul, 1 Corinthians 1:13,
and so Paul took that misguided authority they gave him and gave it right back to Christ,
in a very strong and bold way.

If any person does not LOVE the Lord Jesus Christ, let that person be Anathema, Oh Lord Come!
1 Corinthians 16:22

Love for Christ is shown by obedience to His simple teachings. John 14:24, John 10:27

 

[Neighbor]

On 5/29/2024 at 2:57 PM, FreeGrace said:

No one gets saved by any prayer.  It is all about faith or trust.

I did! In spite of my total lack of faith or trust. I was turned about to worship Yeshua as my Lord God and personal savior. Was a long time coming, the response by God to prayer,  but when that response happened I was turned about in a comparatively near instant.

God is faithful to answer prayer rightly asked.

[Neighbor]

Never give up on prayer to God. Never!

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Jesus' sheep hear His voice and follow Him.

It is Jesus' sheep that receive eternal life.

And we know from John 5:24 that it is "whoever believes" (present tense) HAS (present tense) eternal life.

So that means that in John 10:27, "My sheep" refers to believers.  v.27 is NOT a condition for receiving eternal life.  If anyone is a sheep of Jesus, they HAVE eternal life, per Jn 5:24.

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

FreeGrace said:

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus said that He gives them (believers-Jn 5:24) eternal life and they shall NEVER PERISH.  Do  you believe Jesus?

Jesus says He gives His sheep eternal life.     And in verse 27 He defines who His sheep are.

That is incorrect.  Please pay attention.  I quoted John 5:24, which is the CONDITION for possessing eternal life.  And it is received WHEN a person believes.  v.27 is a description of what His sheep DO or OUGHT TO DO.  There are no words that show v.27 to be a condition for anything.  Someone has taught you wrong.

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

My sheep hear my voice, I know them, and they follow me.
And I give unto them eternal life.
John 10:27-28

Again, there is NOTHING in v.27 that indicates a condition for receiving eternal life.  And v.28 relates directly back to John 5:24.  Maybe you have just not read that verse ever.  So, here it is:  “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Both "believes" and "has" are in the present tense.  This PROVES that a believer possesses eternal life WHEN they become a believer.

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Therefore, if someone is a sheep of Jesus, they hear His voice and follow Him.

Rather, this is a policy statement.  What a sheep SHOULD DO.

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Otherwise they are not His sheep and do not receive eternal life.

Rather, "His sheep" are those who have believed and have received eternal life.

John 1:12 - Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God —

1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

There it is:  believe and receive eternal life.

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

FreeGrace said:

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

2 Thessalonians 1:8

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I find it quite interesting how you consistently IGNORE verses that refute you and you just come back with verses that aren't relevant to the verses I quote.

Do you think 2 Thess 1:8 refutes either John 3:18 or 2 Thess 2:12?

These 2 verses SAY that condemnation is for those who NEVER believed.

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

And therefore according to 2 Thessalonians 2:12 those who have believed the truth have not delighted in wickedness.

Then WHY did Paul warn believers about grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit.  

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Wickedness is sin. Wickedness is actions, works.

Not all works.  Only works done in the flesh.  That includes believers who aren't filled with the Spirit.

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Those who have believed the truth have delighted in good works instead of wicked works.   [ Titus 3:8 ]

You're just trying to conflate 2 unrelated verses.  Doesn't work.

It seems you don't believe a saved person can sin.  Is that your view?

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

FreeGrace said:

Nope.  You simply don't understand the doctrine of reward.  Those "outside" the gates cannot be unbelievers, since ALL of them were already dispatched to the LOF back in Rev 20:15.  So you need to "repent" of your erroneous view and learn about reward.

Your neglecting and ignoring Revelation 21:6-8. 

The reverse is true.  I have been refuting your views with Scripture that is very clear, and yet you just come back with verses that aren't related to the verses I quote.

In fact, Rev 21:8 refer to unbelievers.  

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

And Matthew 22:11-13

And Romans 8:13-14 together with John 3:5-6

And Ephesians 5:5

And Galatians 5:19-24

Please don't just cite verses.  Quote them.  I need to see the words that you think support your views.

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

".......they that belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts."

This is a reference to the fact that believers are IN Christ, per Eph 1:13-Eph 2.  Therefore, this is a statement of POSITIONAL TRUTH.  

It is NOT about anything that we do.  When the Spirit places the believer IN HIM, that's how "crucify trhe flesh".  

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

And 2 John 1:9-11

And 1 Corinthians 16:22 together with John 14:24.

And Hebrews 10:26-28

Ditto.

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

And the full statements in John 10:27

I've already explained your error about this verse.  It is a policy statement, NOT a condition at all.  Words mean things and there is NOTHING about a condition in v.27 that results in receiving eternal life.

Eternal life is received by believing in Christ.

John 3:15,16,18,36, 5:24, 6:40,47.

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

The full context of scripture makes clear that sincere believers live a life of repentance,

That is extremely naive.  Why would Paul WARN believers of grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit?  That's hardly "a life of repentance".

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

ending up as righteous as possible by the power of the Holy Spirit inside of them.

True, but that occurs ONLY WHEN the believer is IN fellowship with the Lord and filled with the Spirit.

Do you know how to be IN fellowship with the Lord?

Do you know how to be filled with the Spirit?

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Jesus' sheep receive eternal life. John 10:27-28

Not from v.27.  From John 5:24.  "whoever believes HAS eternal life".

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Jesus' sheep are they that hear His voice and follow Him, that is what Jesus specifically said: John 10:27

This is a policy statement about believers.  ALL are supposed to do this.  Some do and some do not.

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

A sincere believer will therefore hear His voice and follow Him.

Well, sincere people can be sincerely wrong.  Believers who are IN fellowship and filled with the Spirit will hear and follow.

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

One who rejects Jesus teachings rejects the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Correct.  And believers do reject Jesus' teachings, just as you have, by your view that one's life is a condition for receiving eternal life.  That is a works salvation system, which Jesus REJECTED and condemned the Pharisees for their view.

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Of how much worse punishment, suppose ye, shall he be counted worthy
who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Right.  Such believers will face God's "painful discipline", per Heb 12:11.

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

FreeGrace said:

OK, then it is clear that you do NOT believe what Jesus said in either John 5:24 or John 10:28.

The full passage includes verse 27, Jesus defines who His sheep are, which are people that hear His voice and follow Him.

Again, wrong.  Jesus described who His sheep are back in John 5:24.  That is the SOLE condition for receiving eternal life.

Again, v.27 has NO conditions in it.  It simply describes what believers do or ought to do.

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

In John 10:27-28 Jesus does not say "believers" receive eternal life.

So what?  He did in John 5:24.  Why do you ignore/reject that verse?

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

His said His "sheep", that "hear my voice" and "follow me", receive eternal life.

Since v.27 only describes what His sheep do or ought to do, there is NO condition in either verse about HOW to receive eternal life.

John 3:15,16,18,36

15 - that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

36 - Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

How many verses do you think it would take for you to REPENT of your view?

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Read it carefully and see: John 10:27. Somehow you want to interject "sheep" as just believers

I have already refuted your erroneous view by verses that tell us clearly HOW one receives eternal life.  It is believers.

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

when clearly the passage is defining sheep as those who hear and follow, not just believers.

Sure.  In v.27 when Jesus "My sheep" He WAS referring to believers.  And v.28 tells us that He gives believers eternal life.

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

You are trying to insist on something that is simply not in the text.

Please look in a mirror when you say that.

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

If you believe ALL of what Jesus said, then you would be living a certain way.

The NT includes commands of what believers OUGHT TO DO.  Sure.  But all the warnings in the NT are to believers for what happens WHEN they don't do what they "ought to do".

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Because Jesus said things like, give and it will be given to you.
And, love even your enemies and your reward will be great.

Do you really believe Jesus? Then actions would follow.

And my actions do follow.  I've NEVER excused sin.  

I am interested in your answers to my previous post's questions about HOW to be IN fellowship with the Lord and HOW to be filled with the Spirit.

Your answers will reveal just how much you really understand of the Bible.

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

FreeGrace said:

So, what is this "modern false doctrine"?  If you say OSAS, then obviously you do NOT believe what Jesus said, which I just shared with you.

That "inherit" and "enter" are referring to two different things.

The Mark 10:17 and 10:23 passage shows the most clearly that that notion is false.

Both inherit the kingdom and enter the kingdom are the same idea.

Apparently you are unfamiliar with Rom 8:17.

Now if we are children, then we are heirs —heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

The red words refer to an inheritance based on being God's children.  The blue words refer to an inheritance based on the CONDITION of "sharing in Christ's sufferings" and then the believer will "share in His glory" when He rules over His Kingdom on earth.

The idea that inheritance only refers to entering the kingdom is very short sighted and greatly limits your understanding of Scripture.

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

There are preachers that when reaching Galatians 5:21 will dismiss the clear warning from Paul by saying how that "inherit the kingdom" is not the same as "enter the kingdom".

They are not "dismissing any warning".  They are warning against LOSS of reward.  Which you have denied, because you have been greatly misled.

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Paul makes clear however that those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. Galatians 5:24

As I've already explained from Eph 1:13-ch 2, the Holy Spirit places the believer IN Christ, and therefore shares in all that He did, which includes "crucifying the flesh".

It's not about what WE do, but rather we are IN Him and share in what He did.

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

We don't just live any old way and end up in heaven because we said a sincere prayer at some point in time.

Please don't change the goal posts.  Salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone.  Never about a prayer, so please stay focused on what I say, not what others have said.  And the NT is full of commands about HOW to live, which means that believers may not live the right way.  If all true believers WILL "live the right way", why are there so many warning about living the wrong way?  

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

People who really said a sincere prayer, will therefore live a certain way

That is quite naive.  What Scripture teaches that?

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

simply because they sincerely believe, and largely because the Holy Spirit will be in them.

I have found that most believers, sadly, don't even know the difference between being indwelt with the Spirit, and being filled with the Spirit.  So much of evangelicalism is very confused.  Mainly because they have been taught a lot of flawed doctrine.

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

He that does not keep my teachings does not LOVE me.
John 14:24

If any person does not LOVE the Lord Jesus Christ, let that person be Anathema, Oh Lord Come!
1 Corinthians 16:22

Why did Paul say that? What is he doing there?

He's warning believers who aren't living correctly.  They will face God's discipline.

1 Cor 11:30 shows God's progression of discipline:  weakness, sickness and death.

4 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Love for Christ is shown by obedience to His simple teachings. John 14:24, John 10:27

 That is correct.  And Paul warns believers (saved people) about grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit.  But it seems you are not factoring in the reality that believers get out of fellowship with the Lord and aren't filled with the Spirit.

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, Neighbor said:

FreeGrace said:

No one gets saved by any prayer.  It is all about faith or trust.

I did!  In spite of my total lack of faith or trust

That is about as FAR from the Bible as possible.  I've already given you many verses that specifically tell us HOW to receive eternal life and be saved.  And yet you continue to reject the TRUTH and think some prayer got you saved.

Is there ANY verse in the Bible that teaches that a prayer will save one?

4 hours ago, Neighbor said:

I was turned about to worship Yeshua as my Lord God and personal savior.

Who turned you around?  Did you turn yourself around or someone else?

4 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Was a long time coming, the response by God to prayer,  but when that response happened I was turned about in a comparatively near instant.

God is faithful to answer prayer rightly asked.

What did you ask?