Heaven <> Hell

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, other one said:

Declaring publically he is your Lord is part of salvation

Actually, Rom 10:10 uses "salvation" to refer to being rescued from God's wrath.  Recall Rom 1:18, which set the tone for the epistle.

For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

There are 2 points here.  The red words is about what we call "going to heaven".  Throughout Romans, Paul uses the word "justification" for what we usually call "salvation".  

The second part, in the blue, is about being saved/rescued from God's wrath, which is by living our faith through open confession about who Jesus is and what He did for everyone.  "confession with the mouth" is about our lifestyle, how we live out our faith.

1 hour ago, other one said:

and if he is your Lord, you will do what he says....

This is a nice sentiment, but there are many "rebellious children" in God's family.  Which is why there are so many warnings of God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11).  

1 hour ago, other one said:

   And he gave us two commandments, and those people who he is sending to hell did not follow his second commandment in loving others.

Aren't you aware that this is a form of works-salvation?  Jesus took the Pharisees to task for their failure to understand the OT and how to be saved.  They thought keeping the Law was the answer.  Jesus rebuked their ignorance.

1 hour ago, other one said:

   Those people who didn't do what he said is going to hell and those who did are to be with him.   If that's not pleasing to him, I can't imagine what would.

Rather, condemnation is for everyone who NEVER believed in the finished work of Jesus Christ.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Those are the one who not be with God during eternity.

To "have not believed" means "NEVER believed".

[FreeGrace]

2 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

FreeGrace said:

 Eph 5:18

So, the question is:  specifically, how does one obey that command?  What needs to be done?  I've heard pastors say to "yield" or "submit".  All well and good, but exactly how does one do that, or even know they are doing that?

Ephesians 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Where in that context/chapter is submitting to each other linked to being filled with the Spirit?

[Charlie1988]

12 hours ago, other one said:

 

Over my 77 years I have been to many different denominations looking for that church that preached the whole Bible and did not add things or make things up.  Over the years I looked into some writings outside scripture and agonized over what might be so and what might not.

During this time as I listened to different opinions, and especially here, as to what would and would not send us to heaven or hell (even though there are disagreements on where those two are and even exist).   I hear folks focusing on the ten commandments as to what not to do to please God.   Then I read this scripture in Matthew where Jesus is sending people to hell for what they did not do.

I personally think that the secret to getting to heaven is to focus on what Jesus told us to do instead of what not to do.

Odd thing is if we do what he asks, we really won't do those things he told Israel in Moses days not to do, actually we will not even want to.

It is a lot more complicated than following old laws.  We must follow his two commandments to please him, among other things.  As we study, we need to focus on what he wants us to do, not what we think he wants us not to do.

I think most of us try to obey what Jesus told us to do, by disciplining ourselves and trying to resist the temptation to sin and disobey Him. The reality is, none of us can keep the commandments Jesus gave us. We can't rely on our ability to obey Him, in order to earn entry into heaven. The scriptures say that salvation is by Gods grace and not by any works of man. 

2 Timothy 1:9 Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).

We see in the above verses that salvation is entirely by grace, even the ability to respond to the gospel in obedience is a gift from God as we are all born dead in sins and trespasses. 

We see in Matthew 7:22-23 that professing believers being turned away by Jesus, only because He never knew them. So we can conclude that the only requirement for entry into heaven is to know the Lord Jesus Christ. To know Him must mean we must know Him as our Lord and savior and not our judge as the unbelievers know Him as. 

Matt 7:22-23, Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

The scriptures suggest that we can only enter heaven, if we place our trust in the Lord to preserve and keep us abiding in Him to the end. We don't find anything to say that we enter heaven because of our own good works and obedience, these things are all freely received by those who God gave them to by His grace.  

Edited June 9, 2024 by Charlie1988

[Mr. M]

5 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Where in that context/chapter is submitting to each other linked to being filled with the Spirit?

18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.

[TheBlade]

Hi.. the scriptures you used, when do y0u think that happens? From what I read and understand I won't be there He already came and took what was His. See if the sun goes dark and the moon stops shining and millions and millions are dead and fires, what 1/3 of the sea.. point is that is nothing at all like the days of Noah is it for that is when He comes. When life is going normally and people are getting married so forth not expecting Him. 

Those people He gathers are the people (from what I believe) just came out of the great tribulation. He can't say to me "I never knew you" He already told the Father about me and then all the angels rejoiced when He found me. So I do nothing to make sure I am going to heaven. Is it not written we are a citizen of Heaven? We are ambassadors of Christ, we sit in heavenly places, we come boldly before Him. What are some still dragging that old man around? Is Christ still on that cross dying for all those NEW sins you do?  I don't any more but man part of me really wants to dive into this OT NT.

I never try to obey the 613, 10, 2 commandments. See I've always said its in you right like it is in me? Its not like your driving and you see the speed limit and think "ooh that's right I have to go 65 in town" no not can't drive 55. Its in you.. that spirit man that is you.. the one that loves to do everything He says.. His will not yours. Yet that old flesh we fight day in day out. I hope that makes sense. So I am in this world but my bags are packed..ooh song time "All my bags are packed, I'm ready to go, I'm standin' here outside your door". Yeah its finished what I do now is not focus on sin...oh yes my brother US Christians they love to focus on others sins and faults and point them out. But me..another song "did I leave a trace of Jesus behind". When they see me.. did they see love compassion forgiveness, grace, mercy aka Christ

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, Mr. M said:

FreeGrace said:

Where in that context/chapter is submitting to each other linked to being filled with the Spirit?

18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.

I'm very familiar with Eph 5:18.  It is a command for every believer.  However, submitting to other believers isn't the way to be filled with the Spirit, or the Bible would have specifically said that.

It's sad that so many believers don't actually know how to be filled with the Spirit.  Some think being indwelt is synonymous with being filled and nothing could be farther from the truth.

It seems pastors don't know either, since such teaching seems absent.  

So, what is your answer to the question of how to obey the command to be filled with the Spirit?

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, TheBlade said:

Hi.. the scriptures you used, when do y0u think that happens?

Please identify the poster that you are responding to, so the poster knows you are responding to him/her.

Thanks.

[Mr. M]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

I'm very familiar with Eph 5:18.  It is a command for every believer.  However, submitting to other believers isn't the way to be filled with the Spirit, or the Bible would have specifically said that.

Here is a perfect example from the Testimony:

Acts 4:

5 And it came to pass, on the next day, that their rulers, elders, and scribes, 6 as well as Annas the high priest, Caiaphas, John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the family of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, “By what power or by what name have you done this?”

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel..."

Because Peter walked in a manner consistent with what Paul is teaching the Ephesians in his epistle, he did not have "to do" anything to be filled with the Holy Spirit. He only had to trust, have the faith to step out and walk the walk. The Holy Spirit is an ever present help. It is obvious that you think that you have some revelation on how to obey the command to be filled. the answer is simple, "walk in the Light, as He is in the Light"; and walk in love, both of which are stated in Ephesians 5, the context of verse 18. Get the full message, for nothing is hidden. You can go back to chapter 4, all is relevant. 

3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

The Ephesians were very familiar with the Holy Spirit, as He did extraordinary works there, after they received Him in Acts 19. Technically, Paul is teaching them to remain clean to continue to receive Him as situations demand.

Walking in obedience to the Spirit includes submitting to one another in the fellowship of the Spirit, to remain under the Anointing in Christ. To be filled with the Spirit, walk in obedience, remain in Christ. Yes, submitting to one another is an essential part of this. 

One thing is clear, you are not filled by sitting in a church, asking a Pastor. Be obedient! Go, Stand, Speak!

Acts 5:

19 But at night an angel of the Lord opened the prison doors and brought them out, and said, 

20 “Go, stand in the temple and speak to the people all the words of this life.”

 

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, Mr. M said:

FreeGrace said:

I'm very familiar with Eph 5:18.  It is a command for every believer.  However, submitting to other believers isn't the way to be filled with the Spirit, or the Bible would have specifically said that.

Here is a perfect example from the Testimony:

Acts 4:

5 And it came to pass, on the next day, that their rulers, elders, and scribes, 6 as well as Annas the high priest, Caiaphas, John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the family of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, “By what power or by what name have you done this?”

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel..."

Because Peter walked in a manner consistent with what Paul is teaching the Ephesians in his epistle, he did not have "to do" anything to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

You misunderstand. v.8 says he was filled, but doesn't give the means.  And Eph 5:18 is a command.  Commands have to be obeyed.  To fulfill a command demands that one understand HOW to obey the command.

If your boss at work gave you a command (order) to accomplish something but didn't give you any instructions on HOW to do it, then left for a period of time, how would you feel?  Knowing the boss expected you to accomplish the command?  How fair is that?

Again, Eph 5:18 is a command to obey.  So all believers must understand HOW to be filled.  It certainly isn't automatic or guaranteed.

4 hours ago, Mr. M said:

He only had to trust, have the faith to step out and walk the walk

While this is true for all believers, that doesn't address the "HOW" in how to be filled with the Spirit.  What about believers who are grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit?  They are clearly not able to be filled with the Spirit.

Even when they stop whatever they are doing, doesn't change things.  There are specific things to be done to rectify their state.

4 hours ago, Mr. M said:

The Holy Spirit is an ever present help.

He's there, for sure.  But believers need to KNOW how to access His help.  Which is through filling.

4 hours ago, Mr. M said:

It is obvious that you think that you have some revelation on how to obey the command to be filled.

No, there is no revelation.  Sorry you think that.  The Bible does give us the answer, but not in one single verse.

4 hours ago, Mr. M said:

the answer is simple, "walk in the Light, as He is in the Light"; and walk in love, both of which are stated in Ephesians 5, the context of verse 18.

OK, new question:  how does a believer "walk in the Light", specifically?  Can a believer "walk in love (agape) when out of fellowship with the Lord and quenching the Spirit?  No.  See the problem?

4 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Get the full message, for nothing is hidden. You can go back to chapter 4, all is relevant.

The answer isn't in ch 4.

4 hours ago, Mr. M said:

 3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

How do you do that, specfically?  Can a believer who is grieving the Spirit "keep the unity of the Spirit in peace"?  No.

4 hours ago, Mr. M said:

The Ephesians were very familiar with the Holy Spirit, as He did extraordinary works there, after they received Him in Acts 19. Technically, Paul is teaching them to remain clean to continue to receive Him as situations demand.

Ah, now you're getting warm.  How does a believer "remain clean"?  Big hint.

4 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Walking in obedience to the Spirit includes submitting to one another in the fellowship of the Spirit

Another question:  how does a believer do anything "in the fellowship of the Spirit"?  Recall, Paul told believers to stop grieving/quenching the Holy Spirit.  

4 hours ago, Mr. M said:

to remain under the Anointing in Christ.

That's about as generally vague as "be filled with the Spirit".  

4 hours ago, Mr. M said:

To be filled with the Spirit, walk in obedience, remain in Christ.

These are all true, but too vague to instruct one on the "how to".

4 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Yes, submitting to one another is an essential part of this.

Actually, that is a result of being filled.

4 hours ago, Mr. M said:

 One thing is clear, you are not filled by sitting in a church, asking a Pastor. Be obedient! Go, Stand, Speak!

Neither is that.

4 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Acts 5:

19 But at night an angel of the Lord opened the prison doors and brought them out, and said, 

20 “Go, stand in the temple and speak to the people all the words of this life.”

Yes, the angel told them to fulfill their commission.  But that doesn't result in the filling of the Spirit.

Rather, the apostles had to be filled with the Spirit in order to fulfill their commission.

So, still left with the "how to" part.  You are close.

[Mr. M]

25 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

You misunderstand. v.8 says he was filled, but doesn't give the means.  And Eph 5:18 is a command.  Commands have to be obeyed.  To fulfill a command demands that one understand HOW to obey the command.

If your boss at work gave you a command (order) to accomplish something but didn't give you any instructions on HOW to do it, then left for a period of time, how would you feel?  Knowing the boss expected you to accomplish the command?  How fair is that?

Again, Eph 5:18 is a command to obey.  So all believers must understand HOW to be filled.  It certainly isn't automatic or guaranteed.

While this is true for all believers, that doesn't address the "HOW" in how to be filled with the Spirit.  What about believers who are grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit?  They are clearly not able to be filled with the Spirit.

Even when they stop whatever they are doing, doesn't change things.  There are specific things to be done to rectify their state.

He's there, for sure.  But believers need to KNOW how to access His help.  Which is through filling.

No, there is no revelation.  Sorry you think that.  The Bible does give us the answer, but not in one single verse.

OK, new question:  how does a believer "walk in the Light", specifically?  Can a believer "walk in love (agape) when out of fellowship with the Lord and quenching the Spirit?  No.  See the problem?

The answer isn't in ch 4.

How do you do that, specfically?  Can a believer who is grieving the Spirit "keep the unity of the Spirit in peace"?  No.

Ah, now you're getting warm.  How does a believer "remain clean"?  Big hint.

Another question:  how does a believer do anything "in the fellowship of the Spirit"?  Recall, Paul told believers to stop grieving/quenching the Holy Spirit.  

That's about as generally vague as "be filled with the Spirit".  

These are all true, but too vague to instruct one on the "how to".

Actually, that is a result of being filled.

Neither is that.

Yes, the angel told them to fulfill their commission.  But that doesn't result in the filling of the Spirit.

Rather, the apostles had to be filled with the Spirit in order to fulfill their commission.

So, still left with the "how to" part.  You are close.

Acts 4:

29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”

31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

They prayed, they asked for boldness, they were filled, they spoke with boldness.

Jesus said "ask, and you will receive".

If you have some other formula, stop playing games and state it. You aren't the moderator here.