When was Satan cast out of heaven down to the earth?

[Charlie744]

32 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

What verses do you want me to consider?  You haven’t posted any.👀

If you can’t prove your doctrine by the words of God, then it is just the opinions of men.

Unbelievable! 

[Stewardofthemystery]

14 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Again, leave Daniel to interpret itself… it does. It does not need any help from Revelation.

 

2 Timothy 3:16

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[Stewardofthemystery]

15 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Unbelievable! 

I’ll tell you what is unbelievable to me.  That you think “your opinion”trumps the words of Jesus Christ in John 12:31

It reminds of this….

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that “exalteth itself” against the knowledge of God.

Shameful😞

 

[Charlie744]

11 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

I’ll tell you what is unbelievable to me.  That you think “your opinion”trumps the words of Jesus Christ in John 12:31

It reminds of this….

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that “exalteth itself” against the knowledge of God.

Shameful😞

 

For the 10th time, I do not have the answers— it seems only you do!

I have suggested we take a clean piece of paper and start at the beginning of the Bible, identify the verses that might speak to this topic and then everyone can discuss and comment on them.

Have a good day. 

[Stewardofthemystery]

26 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I have suggested we take a clean piece of paper and start at the beginning of the Bible, identify the verses that might speak to this topic and then everyone can discuss and comment on them.

Have a good day. 

Go ahead and start a thread on Genesis Charlie, be my guest.  But you are still not going to prove the words of Jesus Christ to be in error.

You have a nice day too, Peace

[DeighAnn]

I believe Satan was already out of Gods favor before he ever deceived Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden 

Job 38 tells us
1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

9When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

12Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

13That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

14It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

15And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

ALL the sons of God...WATCHED GOD creating the earth...


What ORDER of events are we given in Revelation?  Does it confirm or conflict with what is written above?  


Revelation 12 tells us 

The Woman and the Dragon

1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Certainly there is only ONE place in the universe that has the sun moon and zodiac... and that would be the earth


2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Since the earth doesn't give birth to little earths, it must be something else...like a new age...like a renewed heaven and earth...like we are told will happen again at the end of this age...maybe, maybe not so we can move past this point and not go off topic...


3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

((isn't that were the anointed cherub, one who protected the Mercy seat was found in iniquity?  Also doesn't it sound almost exactly like the 'government system' that will be employed when Satan rules over the earth given in Rev 13...

 1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy)).


4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven...


 so to ALREADY be 'the serpent' in the garden of Eden, he had to have already sinned and fallen from grace.  Also fits perfectly with

1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made...l

As Ez 28 tells us of the one who (and the ONLY soul fits this description)

A Lament over the King of Tyre

11Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

 

And lest we forget what will happen about the same time as Satan and the angels are cast out....

1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 

And there is the deadly wound...and the deadlly wound to be healed by the beast system...and the beast that rises up from the earth...who we know was cast down to the earth in more than one way... 
 

14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

And Satan entered into Judas for the betrayal, to make sure Jesus would be crucified...just like that first prophecy tells us he would be the one responsible for His death.  Remember what Jesus said about the 'Jews' at that time?  Were they of the tribe of Judah or were they of the synagogue of Satan?   Remember when they were returning to rebuild the temple how there were already no scribes from the bloodline?  They were all Nethinim, weren't they?  Those would become the majority of the Pharisees and Sadducees, didn't they?   

There are some of the Scriptures given that tell us when he fell and why and what happened after that...and there is so much more but isn't that why Satan makes sure we learn incorrectly in the first place?  So easy to teach someone who knows nothing but to take someone who already has a belief and get them to let go of it...that is almost impossible...that can only be done by the Holy Spirit, IMO anyhow.


BUT as to the topic...there are NO ANGELS on the earth now and there have been no angels on the earth for the past 2000 years and that is how we can be sure there has been no war in heaven yet, no silence in heaven, no one kicked out.  

Who can be in heaven??? 

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 


 

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

I’ll tell you what is unbelievable to me.  That you think “your opinion”trumps the words of Jesus Christ in John 12:31

It reminds of this….

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that “exalteth itself” against the knowledge of God.

Shameful😞

 

cast 'out of heaven' isn't what is written, it is WHAT man has assigned its meaning to be.  



3778 houtos, hauté, touto 
Strong's Concordance: THIS
Part of Speech: Demonstrative Pronoun


So the "this" and "this" 

is a demonstrative pronoun.  How are they used?  how do they work? 


What is a demonstrative pronoun?
The demonstrative pronouns this, that, these, and those are used to represent an already mentioned or implied word or phrase, helping make communication faster and easier.


 

Now - nun - 3568 - the present - a primary particle of present time

judgment - krisis - 2920 - a decision - judgment from krinó

is upon this - 3778 - this - used as a demonstrative pronoun

world - kosmou - 2889 order - the world 

now - nun - 3568 - the present a prim particle of present time

the ruler - archōn - 758 - ruler, chief 

of this - 3778 - this - used as a demonstrative pronoun

world - kosmou - 2889 - order, the world 

will be cast - ekblēthēsetai - 1544b - to expel, to drive, cast or send out from ek and balló

out.

CAST OUT FROM THIS WORLD, not from heaven.  

Edited June 13, 2024 by DeighAnn

[Charlie744]

25 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

I believe Satan was already out of Gods favor before he ever deceived Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden 

Job 38 tells us
1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

9When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

12Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

13That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

14It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

15And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

ALL the sons of God...WATCHED GOD creating the earth...


What ORDER of events are we given in Revelation?  Does it confirm or conflict with what is written above?  


Revelation 12 tells us 

The Woman and the Dragon

1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Certainly there is only ONE place in the universe that has the sun moon and zodiac... and that would be the earth


2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Since the earth doesn't give birth to little earths, it must be something else...like a new age...like a renewed heaven and earth...like we are told will happen again at the end of this age...maybe, maybe not so we can move past this point and not go off topic...


3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

((isn't that were the anointed cherub, one who protected the Mercy seat was found in iniquity?  Also doesn't it sound almost exactly like the 'government system' that will be employed when Satan rules over the earth given in Rev 13...

 1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy)).


4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven...


 so to ALREADY be 'the serpent' in the garden of Eden, he had to have already sinned and fallen from grace.  Also fits perfectly with

1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made...l

As Ez 28 tells us of the one who (and the ONLY soul fits this description)

A Lament over the King of Tyre

11Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

 

And lest we forget what will happen about the same time as Satan and the angels are cast out....

1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 

And there is the deadly wound...and the deadlly wound to be healed by the beast system...and the beast that rises up from the earth...who we know was cast down to the earth in more than one way... 
 

14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

And Satan entered into Judas for the betrayal, to make sure Jesus would be crucified...just like that first prophecy tells us he would be the one responsible for His death.  Remember what Jesus said about the 'Jews' at that time?  Were they of the tribe of Judah or were they of the synagogue of Satan?   Remember when they were returning to rebuild the temple how there were already no scribes from the bloodline?  They were all Nethinim, weren't they?  Those would become the majority of the Pharisees and Sadducees, didn't they?   

There are some of the Scriptures given that tell us when he fell and why and what happened after that...and there is so much more but isn't that why Satan makes sure we learn incorrectly in the first place?  So easy to teach someone who knows nothing but to take someone who already has a belief and get them to let go of it...that is almost impossible...that can only be done by the Holy Spirit, IMO anyhow.


BUT as to the topic...there are NO ANGELS on the earth now and there have been no angels on the earth for the past 2000 years and that is how we can be sure there has been no war in heaven yet, no silence in heaven, no one kicked out.  

Who can be in heaven??? 

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 


 

Well, it seems we have the first contributor to the first mention of satan / the fall and the discussion of if this is the time of his been thrown out of heaven.

Because you have put so much time an effort in this, I hope you do not mind if I take a little time going through this... 

Steward, this is what I would hope is the first of many thoughts on this subject so we all can consider and offer our opinions. I would hope to see your response to this ... I am sure you are more than well versed on these verses - especially Revelation, than many.

However, it will require you to begin where DeighAnn is - at the beginning of the Bible.

Thanks, Charlie

[Stewardofthemystery]

24 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Steward, this is what I would hope is the first of many thoughts on this subject so we all can consider and offer our opinions. I would hope to see your response to this ... I am sure you are more than well versed on these verses - especially Revelation, than many.

However, it will require you to begin where DeighAnn is - at the beginning of the Bible.

Thanks, Charlie

You guys and gals feel free to share your thoughts and opinions, but as far as the topic of the OP goes, I believe have proven my point by the words of God.  Peace 

[WilliamL]

On 6/11/2024 at 7:28 AM, Stewardofthemystery said:

Satan/ the Devil/ the old serpent/ the Red Dragon are all speaking of the  same angel and the same spirit, which is also called the Prince of this world, or even “the god of this world” in scripture.(2 Cor.4:4) So to confirm the timing of what Jesus just said we need to go to Revelation chapter 12 where we see the red Dragon standing before the woman, ready to devour her child as soon as it was born.  So when did this happen?

This event happened when Herod had heard of the coming of the King of the Jews, and Herod inquired where this man child was to be born, and Herod sought to destroy the child as shown in Matthew 2:13-16.  In this you see how Satan, “the Prince of this world”, moves men by his spirit to do his will. 

Everything John saw from Rev. 4:1 onward  takes place after the time of John, and after the era of the 7 churches of Rev. 2-3:

Rev. 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after these things.”

So the events of Rev. 12 could not have been fulfilled before the time of John's vision. Deny this if you will.

The issue that confounds people regarding the time and manner of the casting down of Satan is the overlooked fact that there are -- count 'em -- THREE heavens. Satan has been cast down from one to another over time, the last time being, in the time of Jesus, when he was cast down to the lowest heaven, to become "the prince/archon of the air." Ephesians 2:2 That is the heaven that is immediately above this world, and therefore most closely interacts with it.

When Jesus returns at His Parousia "in clouds [of the lowest heaven] ... in air..." to rapture His saints, then Satan will be cast down from that lowest heaven unto the earth, "having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time." 1 Thes. 4:17; Rev. 12:12 That will be his final fall/casting down from the three heavens.