Does God ONLY care about how much money you put in the collection plate?

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, @ExactionForce10.

Some pastors/preachers have more business sense than do others, and that's fine, as long as one is transparent to his congregation. However, money should NOT be the goal in a church. It is merely a MEANS to an END!

A church - an ekkleesia kuriokon - is a "called-out" gathering of individuals "of the Lord." First, and foremost, that gathering is of PEOPLE. Those people MAY choose to worship together under a tree, as far as God is concerned, as long as they are meeting together to support one another and encourage one another in their worship (bending the knee) to God! However, IF they choose to pool their money together and organize into a recognized church body, an ORGANIZATION, then they can use their funds to do more things for God and for His work among their community. When they do this, however, they must realize that they are working TOGETHER to accomplish their stated goals.

If they build a building in which they may meet, then they are TOGETHER obligating themselves to the building and upkeep of that building. They might have access to materials that won't cost their organization any money, having been donated by the members of that organization. If they also have the expertise and experience to build the building themselves, then they may contribute that expertise to the building project, and incur very little debt in the building project. If not, then they may choose to enter an obligation to a bank for the money needed to complet the building. If they do that, however, then they are agreeing to maintain the payments of that loan, as any organization would do, whether they incorporate or not. If they enter such an agreement with a bank, then they are OBLIGATING THEMSELVES COLLECTIVELY to pay off that debt within the time prescribed by the bank. "The borrower is servant to the lender."

Proverbs 22:7 (KJV)

7 The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.

Once built, the building is then considered the property of that lender and organization, and it is the organization's obligation to God to PAY OFF that debt and MAINTAIN that building and use it for His glory! When the organization has paid back its debt to the lender, then the property is legally SOLELY the property of the organization, whose Godly responsibility is to recognize that the property truly belongs to GOD! Thus, we are to CONTINUE to maintain that building as GOD'S building, and we are but His stewards!

"Glory" is also a word that needs to be well-understood:

The Greek word is "doxa" ("δόξα") and means "anything that makes something very apparent," like a bright, white object against a black sky, or a wealthy man in splendid clothing among average people, or a king in all his majesty among his subjects. It's whatever makes one "stick out" from the crowd.

G1391 δόξα dóxa, dox'-ah; from the base of G1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literal or figurative, objective or subjective):
—dignity, glory(-ious), honour, praise, worship.

The Hebrew word translated "glory" is "kaaVowd" ("כָּבוֹד") and it means "weight," and may refer to all the things the person is wearing such as gold, silver, etc., or the "weight" of the responsibility with which he or she is entrusted.

H3519 כָּבוֹד kâbôwd, kaw-vode'; rarely כָּבֹד kâbôd; from H3513; properly, weight, but only figuratively in a good sense, splendor or copiousness:
—glorious(-ly), glory, honour(-able).

And, all glory belongs to GOD! 

[ExactionForce10]

26 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, @ExactionForce10.

Some pastors/preachers have more business sense than do others, and that's fine, as long as one is transparent to his congregation. However, money should NOT be the goal in a church. It is merely a MEANS to an END!

A church - an ekkleesia kuriokon - is a "called-out" gathering of individuals "of the Lord." First, and foremost, that gathering is of PEOPLE. Those people MAY choose to worship together under a tree, as far as God is concerned, as long as they are meeting together to support one another and encourage one another in their worship (bending the knee) to God! However, IF they choose to pool their money together and organize into a recognized church body, an ORGANIZATION, then they can use their funds to do more things for God and for His work among their community. When they do this, however, they must realize that they are working TOGETHER to accomplish their stated goals.

If they build a building in which they may meet, then they are TOGETHER obligating themselves to the building and upkeep of that building. They might have access to materials that won't cost their organization any money, having been donated by the members of that organization. If they also have the expertise and experience to build the building themselves, then they may contribute that expertise to the building project, and incur very little debt in the building project. If not, then they may choose to enter an obligation to a bank for the money needed to complet the building. If they do that, however, then they are agreeing to maintain the payments of that loan, as any organization would do, whether they incorporate or not. If they enter such an agreement with a bank, then they are OBLIGATING THEMSELVES COLLECTIVELY to pay off that debt within the time prescribed by the bank. "The borrower is servant to the lender."

Proverbs 22:7 (KJV)

7 The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.

Once built, the building is then considered the property of that lender and organization, and it is the organization's obligation to God to PAY OFF that debt and MAINTAIN that building and use it for His glory! When the organization has paid back its debt to the lender, then the property is legally SOLELY the property of the organization, whose Godly responsibility is to recognize that the property truly belongs to GOD! Thus, we are to CONTINUE to maintain that building as GOD'S building, and we are but His stewards!

"Glory" is also a word that needs to be well-understood:

The Greek word is "doxa" ("δόξα") and means "anything that makes something very apparent," like a bright, white object against a black sky, or a wealthy man in splendid clothing among average people, or a king in all his majesty among his subjects. It's whatever makes one "stick out" from the crowd.

G1391 δόξα dóxa, dox'-ah; from the base of G1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literal or figurative, objective or subjective):
—dignity, glory(-ious), honour, praise, worship.

The Hebrew word translated "glory" is "kaaVowd" ("כָּבוֹד") and it means "weight," and may refer to all the things the person is wearing such as gold, silver, etc., or the "weight" of the responsibility with which he or she is entrusted.

H3519 כָּבוֹד kâbôwd, kaw-vode'; rarely כָּבֹד kâbôd; from H3513; properly, weight, but only figuratively in a good sense, splendor or copiousness:
—glorious(-ly), glory, honour(-able).

And, all glory belongs to GOD! 

Dude, once anyone starts reading from the old covenant to me, they become suspect. Why? Because that is NOT gospel, that is not the gospel of Lord Jesus where all the glory is now.  Those statements are backed up by gospel.

2 Cor 14 18  14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Which actually brings to mind another problem I had with the prosperity gospel church that I have been referring to here, that is, they spend more time reading from the old covenant than from the gospels of Christ. I suppose that's because the old covenant is the one that talks about tithing being "law" and all that. Since that is all they care about, that is all they really want to talk about, so they read from the old covenant a lot. By contrast, they only seem interested in that which is material, meaning money and the things money can buy. 

I've noticed that a lot of the posts here are full of quotes from the old covenant. You will notice that any Bible quotes I posted in here are from the gospels. 

[Marathoner]

4 hours ago, ExactionForce10 said:

I've noticed that a lot of the posts here are full of quotes from the old covenant. You will notice that any Bible quotes I posted in here are from the gospels. 

False. Passages from the OT have been quoted in 4 posts thus far. This is a four-page thread. That's an average of one post per page. 

For reference, the NT has been quoted in 8 posts so far. 

Edited June 15, 2024 by Marathoner

[Marathoner]

4 hours ago, ExactionForce10 said:

Dude, once anyone starts reading from the old covenant to me, they become suspect. Why? Because that is NOT gospel, that is not the gospel of Lord Jesus where all the glory is now.  Those statements are backed up by gospel.

All scripture is God-breathed (2 Timothy 3:16). Do you disagree?

[Debp]

6 hours ago, ExactionForce10 said:

Which actually brings to mind another problem I had with the prosperity gospel church that I have been referring to here, that is, they spend more time reading from the old covenant than from the gospels of Christ. I suppose that's because the old covenant is the one that talks about tithing being "law" and all that. Since that is all they care about, that is all they really want to talk about, so they read from the old covenant a lot. By contrast, they only seem interested in that which is material, meaning money and the things money can buy. 

So if this church is legalistic and off base...just realize that they are not a true church which preaches Christ as the main message....and depart from that church.

Why keep harping about this one particular church?

Also, we would appreciate you naming this church or pastor, so we can look it up on YouTube or on the Internet.

[Michael37]

3 minutes ago, Debp said:

Why keep harping about this one particular church?

It does seem disingenuous and contrived, but there is a deeper cause for this. Perhaps we can effectively minister to it . . .

[Tristen]

6 hours ago, ExactionForce10 said:

Dude, once anyone starts reading from the old covenant to me, they become suspect

Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

Acts 17:10-12
10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men.

Luke 4:16-22
16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. 17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”

20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” 22 So all bore witness to Him, and marveled at the gracious words which proceeded out of His mouth. And they said, “Is this not Joseph’s son?”

 

I am "suspect" of those who refuse to see that the "Old Covenant" points to Jesus.

Galatians 3:21-25
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

 

[ExactionForce10]

5 hours ago, Marathoner said:

All scripture is God-breathed (2 Timothy 3:16). Do you disagree?

Again, the gospels say this: 

In Hebrews 8 it says: By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete

Merriam-Webster dictionary defines obsolete as: no longer in use or no longer useful. That's what the word OBSOLETE means. God said that too, so I think we are supposed to follow it. 

We are under a new covenant through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of the law as in the old testament. 

Yes, it's upsetting to me, because I've heard prosperity gospel ministers preaching that ALL you have to do to please God is tithe, that's it, but that is false, clearly that is NOT what GOD said: 

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God.

THAT is what GOD said about it in the new covenant, the one that he has not made obsolete.

You see, God did NOT say. "good , you tithe 10% so you are alright with me my good and faithful servant," but that is exactly what I have heard prosperity gospel preachers preach, and not just one. That following "the law" of God and tithing 10% makes you "right with God" and that is the only "faith" that God cares about. 

The TRUTH is, that is the only thing THEY are interested in, and the only thing that THEY really care about, BUT that is NOT what Jesus said, as shown in that Bible verse. Just be honest and say that then.

I'm just saying if these preachers want you to believe them so bad and believe the Bible so bad, they should not be out there misrepresenting what the Bible actually says. I'm not against tithing, and never have been against it (that is a straw man argument). I am against supporting churches that preach a false gospel. 

I have also heard prosperity ministers threatening people to try and coerce them into tithing, YES I have witnessed that. I've even heard the minister in my original post say, in church, "they don't want to join this ministry because I make them tithe." Another false statement and straw man argument. I wouldn't join that ministry because he is preaching a false gospel, THAT IS WHY. 

And I heard him threatening people, saying that if they don't tithe, blah blah blah threats. THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF EXTORTION, FOLKS. That's all I'm saying. Look it up. 

 

[Michael37]

22 minutes ago, ExactionForce10 said:

Again, the gospels say this: 

In Hebrews 8 it says: By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete

Merriam-Webster dictionary defines obsolete as: no longer in use or no longer useful. That's what the word OBSOLETE means. God said that too, so I think we are supposed to follow it. 

We are under a new covenant through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of the law as in the old testament. 

Yes, it's upsetting to me, because I've heard prosperity gospel ministers preaching that ALL you have to do to please God is tithe, that's it, but that is false, clearly that is NOT what GOD said: 

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God.

THAT is what GOD said about it in the new covenant, the one that he has not made obsolete.

You see, God did NOT say. "good , you tithe 10% so you are alright with me my good and faithful servant," but that is exactly what I have heard prosperity gospel preachers preach, and not just one. That following "the law" of God and tithing 10% makes you "right with God" and that is the only "faith" that God cares about. 

The TRUTH is, that is the only thing THEY are interested in, and the only thing that THEY really care about, BUT that is NOT what Jesus said, as shown in that Bible verse. Just be honest and say that then.

I'm just saying if these preachers want you to believe them so bad and believe the Bible so bad, they should not be out there misrepresenting what the Bible actually says. I'm not against tithing, and never have been against it (that is a straw man argument). I am against supporting churches that preach a false gospel. 

I have also heard prosperity ministers threatening people to try and coerce them into tithing, YES I have witnessed that. I've even heard the minister in my original post say, in church, "they don't want to join this ministry because I make them tithe." Another false statement and straw man argument. I wouldn't join that ministry because he is preaching a false gospel, THAT IS WHY. 

And I heard him threatening people, saying that if they don't tithe, blah blah blah threats. THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF EXTORTION, FOLKS. That's all I'm saying. Look it up. 

Membership of Worthy Christian Forums doesn't include tithing as a requirement, but it does require that members refrain from inciting conflict and running the site and its administration down.

Some posters do come with axes to grind, but we have an excellent Oversight Ministry well able to guide such posters away from trying to get the specks in others' eyes out while they have logs in their own. 

[Marathoner]

25 minutes ago, ExactionForce10 said:

Again, the gospels say this: 

In Hebrews 8 it says: By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete

Merriam-Webster dictionary defines obsolete as: no longer in use or no longer useful. That's what the word OBSOLETE means. God said that too, so I think we are supposed to follow it. 

We are under a new covenant through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of the law as in the old testament. 

Yes, it's upsetting to me, because I've heard prosperity gospel ministers preaching that ALL you have to do to please God is tithe, that's it, but that is false, clearly that is NOT what GOD said: 

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God.

THAT is what GOD said about it in the new covenant, the one that he has not made obsolete.

You see, God did NOT say. "good , you tithe 10% so you are alright with me my good and faithful servant," but that is exactly what I have heard prosperity gospel preachers preach, and not just one. That following "the law" of God and tithing 10% makes you "right with God" and that is the only "faith" that God cares about. 

The TRUTH is, that is the only thing THEY are interested in, and the only thing that THEY really care about, BUT that is NOT what Jesus said, as shown in that Bible verse. Just be honest and say that then.

I'm just saying if these preachers want you to believe them so bad and believe the Bible so bad, they should not be out there misrepresenting what the Bible actually says. I'm not against tithing, and never have been against it (that is a straw man argument). I am against supporting churches that preach a false gospel. 

I have also heard prosperity ministers threatening people to try and coerce them into tithing, YES I have witnessed that. I've even heard the minister in my original post say, in church, "they don't want to join this ministry because I make them tithe." Another false statement and straw man argument. I wouldn't join that ministry because he is preaching a false gospel, THAT IS WHY. 

And I heard him threatening people, saying that if they don't tithe, blah blah blah threats. THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF EXTORTION, FOLKS. That's all I'm saying. Look it up. 

 

You didn't answer the question.