Church: Man-made or Jesus made.

[Marathoner]

7 hours ago, D. Adrien said:

It depends. Is Satan presenting himself as an angle of light through his children, or is Jesus truly glorified and the centerpiece of the worshipping body?

If false subtleties are promulgated through the leadership, is it acceptable to just disregard because you have friends in the congregation?

Indeed. This is how I view things for us:

We go wherever the Lord sends us. He has consistently sent me to desperate and dark places in this world, and He did not do so without preparing and equipping me beforehand. I was born into a dark house, so it wasn't unfathomable by any means. 

I have visited churches on occasion over the years, but He has never told me to remain with one. I visited, and it was for a specific purpose: His purpose. I certainly wouldn't have visited a church on my own accord. Some conflate church attendance with gathering together, but experience has demonstrated that isn't true. There is no fellowship between light and darkness. A church is where we find wheat and tares together in the same place.

I accept one's word if they testify that the Lord intends for them to belong to a particular church; who am I to question another? Absolutely not, seeing as how the Lord sent me to the so-called "war zone" of this city after my mother passed on. Roughly 85% of reported violent crime happens here, and this is one of the most dangerous cities in the United States. It's usually in the top ten. 

I'm not in the business of questioning what the Lord does with His servants. 

[farouk]

9 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

Indeed. This is how I view things for us:

We go wherever the Lord sends us. He has consistently sent me to desperate and dark places in this world, and He did not do so without preparing and equipping me beforehand. I was born into a dark house, so it wasn't unfathomable by any means. 

I have visited churches on occasion over the years, but He has never told me to remain with one. I visited, and it was for a specific purpose: His purpose. I certainly wouldn't have visited a church on my own accord. Some conflate church attendance with gathering together, but experience has demonstrated that isn't true. There is no fellowship between light and darkness. A church is where we find wheat and tares together in the same place.

I accept one's word if they testify that the Lord intends for them to belong to a particular church; who am I to question another? Absolutely not, seeing as how the Lord sent me to the so-called "war zone" of this city after my mother passed on. Roughly 85% of reported violent crime happens here, and this is one of the most dangerous cities in the United States. It's usually in the top ten. 

I'm not in the business of questioning what the Lord does with His servants. 

@Marathoner John's First Epistle has much about light versus darkness and about eternal vindication for the believer because of the Son of God and His work at the Cross.

[tim_from_pa]

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

I have noticed that there are a few threads which seem to suggest that the Church is - in a mess and in decline.

Is this the Church that Jesus is building and maturing or is it something that man has made?

 

I always saw this condition as the weeds in the garden or field.  Weeds grow easily, some look similar (e.g. wheat vs tares) and are shallow-rooted. Jesus expected this, and called His followers a "little flock" (whether one wants to apply that to the church or Israel, I think it satisfies both). There are no shortage of scriptures where Jesus said this, and apostles warned about this phenomenon. Personally, I found likes seek themselves out.  You can go to any church and everyone is friendly, loving and so forth, but only a few may want to study the Word, Walk in the Spirit and otherwise practice what Jesus would have us do. These brothers and sisters find each other.  And on a side note here, I been saying for some time now that the "house church" phenomenon is the way to go and trend of the future.  Most of society and Big government don't mind churches if they are approved, and have the right group-think as if the Lord's Word needs government approval by those who can't even run their own houses correctly. As with Jews now, expect true Christians to be persecuted next so more meetings will be in secret.

Edited June 24, 2024 by tim_from_pa
spelling (as usual lol)

[farouk]

32 minutes ago, tim_from_pa said:

I always saw this condition as the weeds in the garden or field.  Weeds grow easily, some look similar (e.g. wheat vs tares) and are shallow-rooted. Jesus expected this, and called His followers a "little flock" (whether one wants to apply that to the church or Israel, I think it satisfies both). There are no shortage of scriptures where Jesus said this, and apostles warned about this phenomenon. Personally, I found likes seek themselves out.  You can go to any church and everyone is friendly, loving and so forth, but only a few may want to study the Word, Walk in the Spirit and otherwise practice what Jesus would have us do. These brothers and sisters find each other.  And on a side note here, I been saying for some time now that the "house church" phenomenon is the way to go and trend of the future.  Most of society and Big government don't mind churches if they are approved, and have the right group-think as if the Lord's Word needs government approval by those who can't even run their own houses correctly. As with Jews now, expect true Christians to be persecuted next so more meetings will be in secret.

Hi @tim_from_pa Acts 2.42 principles, practised by the early church, led themselves to the idea of the pilgrim remnant of the Old Testament (e.g., Malachi 3.16), even though dispensationally they are distinction from the situation of Israel.

[Marathoner]

1 hour ago, farouk said:

@Marathoner John's First Epistle has much about light versus darkness and about eternal vindication for the believer because of the Son of God and His work at the Cross.

When the Lord is involved in a matter, and we walk and move according to His Spirit, then His power accompanies whatever unfolds. That's been my experience since the beginning when the Spirit called me to Christ. Yes, His power was evident even when I fell away and endured much tribulation and trial for two decades. How? His power was evident in His discipline which was given for my restoration. Tribulation and trial were for my good. 

As men, we can only testify of the hidden counsel of God after the appointed time has come. I had no idea that what I endured served more than one purpose:

1. It was scourging a wayward son;
2. It was so I might learn the nature of this flesh which we strive against;
3. It prepared me for the works He intended me to walk in when the time came;
4. It enabled me to encourage those who suffer the same. Not only encourage, but understand precisely what they are going through. 

The Lord doesn't have one purpose in mind when He accomplishes something, just as how those blessings He poured upon me when He restored me were not intended for me alone. Unless God reveals a matter to us, we just don't know. 

[D. Adrien]

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

When the Lord is involved in a matter, and we walk and move according to His Spirit, then His power accompanies whatever unfolds. That's been my experience since the beginning when the Spirit called me to Christ. Yes, His power was evident even when I fell away and endured much tribulation and trial for two decades. How? His power was evident in His discipline which was given for my restoration. Tribulation and trial were for my good. 

As men, we can only testify of the hidden counsel of God after the appointed time has come. I had no idea that what I endured served more than one purpose:

1. It was scourging a wayward son;
2. It was so I might learn the nature of this flesh which we strive against;
3. It prepared me for the works He intended me to walk in when the time came;
4. It enabled me to encourage those who suffer the same. Not only encourage, but understand precisely what they are going through. 

The Lord doesn't have one purpose in mind when He accomplishes something, just as how those blessings He poured upon me when He restored me were not intended for me alone. Unless God reveals a matter to us, we just don't know. 

Yes, I would conclude that the Church is Jesus ordained but all the problems are manmade. Of course the problems are instigated by people not walking in the Spirit and bending to wrong influences.

[Marilyn C]

14 hours ago, Who me said:

There are two meanings to ' church '.

There is the eternal visible and invisible " Church " formed of every Christian alive or who has lived or who will live.

This Church is not affected by man's inherent  sinfulness and tendancy to be mislead. 

Then there is the organisation church, baptist, methodist CoE, RCC etc and the cultic off shoots JW etc

These are inhabited  by Christians and no Christians and are heavily influenced by man's sinfulness. 

 

Jesus created us to be relational, towards God  parents, children, spouses, friends etc etc and part of that is being involved in a local church.

How else are we to love the unlovely,  do it All by ourselves or together with others!

How else are we going to practically  support those serving as missionaries. Does one pay the cost of supporting a missionary out of one's salary, or do it together with many others in a church based organisation.

Hi Who me,

Good thoughts there, and I agree with most of it. Just the point on gathering together, that does not have to be by an organization. Also, supporting missionaries, (we are all missionaries come to that) as we have done, can be by a few friends and their relationships etc all supporting a person or couple overseas, or where ever.

We do not have to rely on an organization to bring us together, to take our money and use it where they think. In my own life and with hubby we make sure where our money goes. For example -

- help a widow live in a unit and follow up with care and practical help.

- have a family stay for a while in a flood and gather bedding from friends to help those put out of their homes.

- growing food and sharing it.

- supporting a Christian live-in group helping those who have had addictions.

- helping neighbours when they have been sick and managing their farm and animals.

- supporting a couple who have gone to Africa. (via the internet)

etc. We are responsible for who we give our money, time and help to. Much more accountable in being personally involved.

[Marilyn C]

I am really appreciative of all who have posted and given their good thoughts. I will try and reply to all.

[Marilyn C]

13 hours ago, D. Adrien said:

It depends. Is Satan presenting himself as an angle of light through his children, or is Jesus truly glorified and the centerpiece of the worshipping body?

If false subtleties are promulgated through the leadership, is it acceptable to just disregard because you have friends in the congregation?

Hi Adrian,

Yes, the two - organization and believers can get confused.

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Good question, Marilyn. The following is what I see and how I interpret it with scripture.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [emphasis mine]

Falling away ~ ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ (apostasia) defiance of established system or authority, rebellion, abandonment, breach of faith (Josh 22:22; 2 Ch 29:19; 1 Macc 2:15; Just., D. 110, 2; Tat. 8:1) ἀπό τινος (Plu., Galb. 1053 [1, 9] Z. v.l. ἀπὸ Νέρωνος ἀ.; Jos., Vi. 43) ἀποστασίαν διδάσκεις ἀπὸ Μωϋσέως you teach (Judeans) to abandon Moses Ac 21:21. ^[1]

God’s authority! What is this falling away? Is it believers, the church, church attendance, slipping away from holiness and the truth of God, and believing a lie? I do not think apostasy happens overnight; in the blink of an eye, it is a process that occurs over a period we are witnessing.

God established human government to restrain and punish evil and resolve legal and civil matters. Christians are not to take their brother or sister to a secular court to resolve their disputes. One role of the church is to influence the government and those who govern us, not vice versa. There has been a role reversal in charity, morals, and values commonly called “political correctness” by the father of lies.

An entitlement mentality has evolved: I am entitled to what you worked for and earned. I am entitled to qualify for any position in the church; otherwise, you are a bigot, homophobic, and discriminating. Church congregations are hiring clergy to tickle their ears, entertaining them with another gospel to make them feel better about themselves and ease their conscience.

I see the definition of apostasy occurring in all the major denominations today in the name of inclusion, acceptance, non-discrimination, and political correctness, ordaining women pastors, transgenders, homosexual and lesbian pastors, and deacons, the acceptance of abominations in the church of God. We are living in the final Laodicean church age. Jesus is now outside of the church, knocking to come in:

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

The globe's largest denomination, with 1.4 billion adherents: The push and implementation for a one world religion. The Pope Francis ecumenical movement and consolidation of former protester denominations, back under the umbrella of the one true universal church (Catholicism). We have Abraham in common, including letters of agreement with some Muslim sects. Many bazar statements from this current Pope, to paraphrase, who am I to judge homosexuality, I would baptize extraterrestrials if they are in a fallen state, a bonified socialist, first Jesuit Pope, an advocate of climate change policy enforcement, anything, and everything other than Jesus Christ, and the only way for Salvation.

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

What day? I propose all the signs and world conditions of the approaching tribulation. People became scared during this COVID-19 fiasco. How many attended churches before COVID-19, and because of mandates and fear, stopped attending church and never returned?

It took a lot of rhetoric to get to the heart of your question, Marilyn. Compared to fifty years ago, has the church of God progressed or digressed? How many churches are watering down and perverting God’s word and commandments?

 

 

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^[1] William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 120.

Hi Dennis,

Yes, I have a cuppa handy. Good description of the errors coming through man-made organization. Yet, the Church Jesus is building and maturing continues, stronger and stronger.