Church: Man-made or Jesus made.

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, AnOrangeCat said:

This is really key to the whole thing. Believers are the church proper, but the organizational meaning of the term as people understand it is a muddled mess. It encompasses a very wide body that doesn't necessarily need to be all lumped in together IMO.

Agreed, though I will note that things are happening faster than they might have in the past. Within the course of my soon to be 44 year lifespan there's been a massive shift in values and taboos, and there's been a backlash against that shift.It seems to me to be of the magnitude that normally took entire generations to occur. I place a lot of credit for the rapid shift on media and improvements in communications tech. Normally community values would pressure people to keep within certain bounds and at the very least make certain things better done in secret if you valued your reputation. With the advent of the internet there's been quite a bit of desensitization and people can reach out to others with similar interests to get a sense of validation for good and for ill.

You touched on another thing that's important. The government has exerted considerable influence on the church for some time now as well. Both it and the falling away in general are unfortunate, but they were foretold. At least for me that takes some of the edge off of a depressing and at times horrifying situation.

Hi AnOrangeCat,

Good thoughts there. Thank you.

[Marilyn C]

8 hours ago, warrior12 said:

As others have pointed out , the church is infiltrated by radical liberal movements that can only come from satan.  They call what is good evil and evil what is good and is very angry with Romans 1.  The people who read and understand the whole structure of the word , would not fall for the plot to overthrow the church that Christ has established, but cannot prevail.   Testing of faiths will separate the wheat from the chaffs.   

Yes, there is a difference between what man has made and what Jesus is making.

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, Marathoner said:

The churches are man-made, sister. As I've asserted before, members of the Body can be found in the churches; wheat grows among the tares. That sums up the churches rather well.  

After the Lord called me from this world, the first thing He displayed to me was His Body. His Body is transcendent which is to say, we are not limited in space and time to peculiar locations... we are everywhere in this world. We began after He ascended to sit with the Father, and we have never been overcome nor vanquished from this earth. I learned that the Lord is both faithful and true, and that His good pleasure is always accomplished. 

So good Marathoner. We see the difference and hold lightly man-made structures and organizations. However, it still has a big hold on believers who still think it is the `Church.` 

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Much of the mess comes down to the simplest of spiritual principles:

Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?

Paul addresses this in his second epistle to Timothy:

2 Timothy 4:

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 

4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

Isaiah 65:2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walk in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts...

So true, Mr Magoo.

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

Those who belong to the true Church are those who are born of God’s Holy Spirit.  Everyone else is of the spirit of this world.

“Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”

Hi Steward,

Spot on. No organization of man to have to have credibility, just the Spirit of Christ.

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, tim_from_pa said:

I always saw this condition as the weeds in the garden or field.  Weeds grow easily, some look similar (e.g. wheat vs tares) and are shallow-rooted. Jesus expected this, and called His followers a "little flock" (whether one wants to apply that to the church or Israel, I think it satisfies both). There are no shortage of scriptures where Jesus said this, and apostles warned about this phenomenon. Personally, I found likes seek themselves out.  You can go to any church and everyone is friendly, loving and so forth, but only a few may want to study the Word, Walk in the Spirit and otherwise practice what Jesus would have us do. These brothers and sisters find each other.  And on a side note here, I been saying for some time now that the "house church" phenomenon is the way to go and trend of the future.  Most of society and Big government don't mind churches if they are approved, and have the right group-think as if the Lord's Word needs government approval by those who can't even run their own houses correctly. As with Jews now, expect true Christians to be persecuted next so more meetings will be in secret.

Yes, tim, we, (hubby and I) meet with a few and then at other times others. We are in the country and have to travel to the little towns nearby. We have friends in a few towns and thus share when we can. We organize ourselves and when meet each shares - lunch, or cuppa, news, what God is doing, the word, prayer etc. No fixed agenda. 

Our lives are involved and we all help in various ways as well as reach out beyond our relationships.  

[Marilyn C]

17 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

I have noticed that there are a few threads which seem to suggest that the Church is - in a mess and in decline.

Is this the Church that Jesus is building and maturing or is it something that man has made?

 

My thoughts are after many years of being apart of man`s organiztions is that there is much good as people work together. Then, of course there is much that is not right because of the human element.

Then, when we (hubby and I) finally left working in the organization it took a long time for the ways of the organization to get out of me. I was constantly thinking of how I could get the different relationships to have formal meetings, but no, God wasn`t going that way.

Eventually when I got out of the way I settled and relaxed (not so intense friends said) I appreciated the times friends could come together to encourage, share and pray for each other. It is not a formal meeting but a mutual getting together as we are able across the valley here in a farming community.

Our lives are more involved and the sharing is deeper than when we just went to man`s organizations. Discipling is key as we reach out to those around and help them on their journey in knowing the Lord. 

Some of our relationships still go to man`s organizations, and that doesn`t interfere with the relationship. Some people need, like, the formal structure. The important thing is to know what is of man (the organization) and what is of the Lord, (believers).

[Who me]

10 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Just the point on gathering together, that does not have to be by an organization. Also, supporting missionaries, (we are all missionaries come to that) as we have done, can be by a few friends and their relationships etc all supporting a person or couple overseas, or where ever.

One of the common complaints about  non domestic churches, is the lack of oversight for the minister.

In theory belonging to a church organisation provides for a certain standard of minister and for a mediation process for when there are disputes between congregation and church leaders.

Yes a group of friends can support someone working for Jesus or provide for those in need.

Belonging to amidsionary society means there are those with the legal expertise to support the missionary, those with experience of working in a different culture, provision of support in that country and regional conferences. 

 

I find it interesting that Paul wrote to the churches, both for their benefit, but also because he benefited from associating  with them.

Why constantly re invent what has been invented?Yes be wise about how one's money is spent, with whom one associates and humble enough to work with those who don't  dot all the same theological i's.

[Marilyn C]

13 hours ago, Who me said:

One of the common complaints about  non domestic churches, is the lack of oversight for the minister.

In theory belonging to a church organisation provides for a certain standard of minister and for a mediation process for when there are disputes between congregation and church leaders.

Yes a group of friends can support someone working for Jesus or provide for those in need.

Belonging to amidsionary society means there are those with the legal expertise to support the missionary, those with experience of working in a different culture, provision of support in that country and regional conferences. 

 

I find it interesting that Paul wrote to the churches, both for their benefit, but also because he benefited from associating  with them.

Why constantly re invent what has been invented?Yes be wise about how one's money is spent, with whom one associates and humble enough to work with those who don't  dot all the same theological i's.

Hi Who me,

Yes, belonging to a missionary association does have benefits. Then I also think of God moving through individuals - 

David Wilkison - with the drug addicts in US.

Jackie Pullinger - with the drug addicts in the walled city of Hong Kong.

and many others.