I can do whatever and there is No Condemnation in Christ!

[Truswell]

7 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

To me this is a straw man argument in several aspects (as I've stated before). And to my knowledge you have not explained how a born again child of God gets Unborn. So here we are again - on the verge of what is likely to be more circular and fruitless wrangling.

By backsliding. See Hebrews 6:4-6.

[Michael37]

[Your closest friendnt]

On 7/13/2024 at 1:56 PM, Vine Abider said:

I've been closely considering this over the last day . . . so is this true, what it says in Romans 8:1, that there is zero condemnation to those in Christ? * Absolutely!  My penalty for sin is 100% paid by the incredible sacrificial death of Christ!  Now I have complete freedom from receiving even the tiniest condemnation for any sin I commit.  Because of His exceedingly-over-the-top substitutionary death for my sin, I'm totally free to choose without any fear of retribution for sin from God!

Therefore if God doesn't condemn me, who can? (see Rom 8:31-39) Should I condemn myself if God doesn't?  No, this is His total love and grace to me and I must agree with His assessment!  As the pop song says, "I'm free to do what I want, any old time" and God looks at me as righteous in Christ. This is hard for the old legalistic man to swallow, but there it is . . .

And Paul says this too: "All thing are lawful (lit. permitted - it is a right) for me!" (1 Cor 10:23) Wow! 

However, does that mean there are no consequences for sinning and doing whatever I want?  No, there are consequences.  As Paul goes on to say in that above verse, "But not all things are profitable."

What!? I can do whatever I want, but there might not be profit for what I do?!  Yes, that is the case.

So, there's no condemnation for sin and Father always loves us unconditionally (as His children), but what if we are not following Him and living by Christ?  Here are what I see as answers to that question:

1. We will not be profitable in this life

2. His indwelling Spirit will convict & discipline us (as children)

3. His love will (hopefully) constrain us

4. Any sin may have seen or unseen consequences upon us and/or others, and our relationship with God (from our side)

5. Christians will be held accountable for our our works (not condemned for sin) at the Bema judgment - rewards or loss

Therefore while we do have total and complete freedom to choose to do whatever we want, and we cannot get away from God's love and grace, there may be serious consequences still.  As I brother I know said, "Don't play around with sin and think there are no consequences!"

"For you have been bought for a price: therefore glorify God in your body."

1 Cor 6:20
 

* what follows in that verse (Romans 8:1) in a few translations, "to those who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit" is not in original texts.

Definitely no one can point to what a believer says or does and use it as reason to say that a believer because of his behavior he will end up in Hell forgetting that the appearance at the time of death of the believers is before Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is not Judging the believers in him at that time. The believers are not judge.  How many times Jesus has to say it that anyone who believes in him is not Judge because he is in him by faith alone. Because the believers in him have obeyed the Heavenly Father and have believed in Jesus Christ. And that makes them the children of the Heavenly Father. And Jesus Christ cannot Judge the children of the Heavenly Father to go to Hell because of some fleshly disobedience because they are in the Heavenly Father's obedience. Besides the point. 

But while they still live in the flesh and they are ruled by the desires of the flesh and remain that way and they understand the difference then they are walking in the flesh and they may be working the deeds of the flesh and the devil may be there to aid their affliction. And they may give him a foothold because he will encourage him in their pleasurable sins and will help them to have a greater appetite perhaps. And there ate problems in this lifestyle.  And they are servants to their desires. And we want to follow Jesus and be his Servant and think about him and talk about him and sing songs about the goodness of the Lord. And we learn to walk in his way. 

Edited July 15, 2024 by Your closest friendnt

[AnOrangeCat]

12 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

What!? I can do whatever I want, but there might not be profit for what I do?!  Yes, that is the case.

So, there's no condemnation for sin and Father always loves us unconditionally (as His children), but what if we are not following Him and living by Christ?  Here are what I see as answers to that question:

1. We will not be profitable in this life

2. His indwelling Spirit will convict & discipline us (as children)

3. His love will (hopefully) constrain us

4. Any sin may have seen or unseen consequences upon us and/or others, and our relationship with God (from our side)

5. Christians will be held accountable for our our works (not condemned for sin) at the Bema judgment - rewards or loss

Therefore while we do have total and complete freedom to choose to do whatever we want, and we cannot get away from God's love and grace, there may be serious consequences still.  As I brother I know said, "Don't play around with sin and think there are no consequences!"

There's a lot to say on this and chew on. It's very much tread with care material because there are some strong warnings against causing other believers to stumble, and in James 3:1 we hear that those of us who teach are held to higher standards of accountability. It's my opinion that when we assemble verses to argue a doctrinal position in a public venue we are, in effect, teaching.

1. There are some interesting translation variations in this verse. The sentiment of "All things are lawful to me" is present in them all, but the way it's framed varies and can significantly change how we might interpret it. In some it's accompanied by quotation marks or comes out as "All things are lawful to me", you say. This leaves us with an important question to ask. Is Paul making an actual statement of doctrine here or is he making a counter argument to a position that was present in the Corinthian church at that time? I personally take the latter stance as it seems characteristic of Paul. In the greater context of the surrounding verses Paul specifically mentions eating food that was offered up to idols. This is interesting and important IMO because in Romans 14 Paul touches on this matter and similar ones, calling them disputable matters. He even tells us not to cause others to stumble. I think this is another thing that gives greater context to what was being talked about in Corinthians as the two mirror each other very closely.

2-4: Total agreement there.

5: Mostly agreed. I definitely get that while salvation isn't works based Heavenly rewards certainly are. I Corinthians 3:10-15 supports this notion. It's compared to building on a foundation that's tried by fire to see what remains. It even outright says that the builder will be rewarded for a lasting work while a builder whose work is burned will suffer loss yet still be saved. Where I differ is that I believe we can lose our salvation should we stray far enough and not repent.

People have already listed some key verses on that. Adding to the list Jesus Himself said that no one who puts their hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God. II Peter 2:20-21 says of people who escaped wickedness and then turned back to it that it would have been better for them to have not known the way of righteousness in the first place.

As an interesting case in I Corinthians 5 (isn't it interesting how so many points keep coming back to this one book?) Paul speaks on a man in the church who was involved in incest. He instructed the church to shun him and said that the man was handed over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh that his spirit might be saved. This is really a fascinating case to be because Paul put emphasis on this specific sin by saying even heathens didn't do it and went so far as to tell the church to cut him off, yet at the same time seems to state that there's hope for the man's soul. The destruction of the flesh is crucial there. Unfortunately the text doesn't seem to give us any clues as to whether or not this destruction was a catalyst for bringing about repentance or a means of stopping him from falling deeper into sin and hitting the point where he crossed a line.

Speaking of crossing the line I think it's important to revisit your points 2-4. Conviction and discipline are parts of a process intended to bring us to repentance for sure. It's certainly not always instant, and more often than not it takes a while. But is there a point at which we can cross a line and end up no longer in Christ? I certainly believe so based on the scriptural warnings people have pointed out in this thread. Plus if we take the idea that we can do whatever we want to its extreme end and still be in Christ we run into some problems. We could, as a hypothetical example, have someone who was saved descend into murder, all kinds of sexual immorality, and so on yet still remain "in Christ". I very much doubt that this is what Paul intended to say, yet we open the door for just that if we interpret I Corinthians 10:23's "All things are lawful" at face value and without context. Jesus said if we love Him we'll keep His commandments. If the love for Him isn't there I strongly believe they're going to end up in the "Lord, Lord" crowd.

[Tristen]

16 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

I've been closely considering this over the last day . . . so is this true, what it says in Romans 8:1, that there is zero condemnation to those in Christ? * Absolutely!  My penalty for sin is 100% paid by the incredible sacrificial death of Christ!  Now I have complete freedom from receiving even the tiniest condemnation for any sin I commit.  Because of His exceedingly-over-the-top substitutionary death for my sin, I'm totally free to choose without any fear of retribution for sin from God!

Therefore if God doesn't condemn me, who can? (see Rom 8:31-39) Should I condemn myself if God doesn't?  No, this is His total love and grace to me and I must agree with His assessment!  As the pop song says, "I'm free to do what I want, any old time" and God looks at me as righteous in Christ. This is hard for the old legalistic man to swallow, but there it is . . .

And Paul says this too: "All thing are lawful (lit. permitted - it is a right) for me!" (1 Cor 10:23) Wow! 

However, does that mean there are no consequences for sinning and doing whatever I want?  No, there are consequences.  As Paul goes on to say in that above verse, "But not all things are profitable."

What!? I can do whatever I want, but there might not be profit for what I do?!  Yes, that is the case.

So, there's no condemnation for sin and Father always loves us unconditionally (as His children), but what if we are not following Him and living by Christ?  Here are what I see as answers to that question:

1. We will not be profitable in this life

2. His indwelling Spirit will convict & discipline us (as children)

3. His love will (hopefully) constrain us

4. Any sin may have seen or unseen consequences upon us and/or others, and our relationship with God (from our side)

5. Christians will be held accountable for our our works (not condemned for sin) at the Bema judgment - rewards or loss

Therefore while we do have total and complete freedom to choose to do whatever we want, and we cannot get away from God's love and grace, there may be serious consequences still.  As I brother I know said, "Don't play around with sin and think there are no consequences!"

"For you have been bought for a price: therefore glorify God in your body."

1 Cor 6:20
 

* what follows in that verse (Romans 8:1) in a few translations, "to those who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit" is not in original texts.

There is a premise and perspective which I think is understated in the OP.

Sin is not just wrong in some abstract moral sense - we avoid sin because we understand that sin is bad for us. Sin corrupts us, destroys us, enslaves us, kills us. Sin is the thing we need to be saved from.

If one understands the role of sin, it doesn't make sense to choose to be enslaved after being liberated from slavery. Nor to seek to be dominated by the flesh after we have been given authority over our flesh.

The grace of Christ teaches that there is nothing virtuous in sin that we should even want to pursue it - let alone justify it.

Ephesians 4:17-24
17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Galatians 6:7-8
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

 

[steve morrow]

GODS  TRUTH  FROM  JESUS  CHRIST

 

EZEKIEL 33:13  when I shall say to the righteous that he shall surely live  --  IF  --  he trust to his own righteousness and commit iniquity --all his righteousnesses  --  SHALL  NOT  BE  REMEMBERED  --  BUT  FOR  HIS  INIQUITY  THAT  HE  HATH  COMMITTED  HE  SHALL  --DIE  FOR  IT--

 

MATTHEW 7:23  and then will I profess unto them ---I  NEVER  KNEW  YOU---  depart from  ME  you that work iniquity 

 

2 PETER 2:22  but it is happened unto them according to the true proverb the dog is turned --to his own vomit again -- and the sow  -- THAT  WAS  WASHED  TO  HER  WALLOWING  IN  THE  MIIRE--

 

HEBREWS 10:38  now the just shall live by faith --- but if any man drawback   MY  soul shall have no pleasure in him ---

 

HEBREWS 10:39  but we are not of them who draw back unto perdition but of them that believe to the saving of the soul

 

HEBREWS 10:31  it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of  --- THE  LIVING  GOD---

 

JONAH 2:8  they that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST

 

[Sower]

2 hours ago, Tristen said:

The grace of Christ teaches that there is nothing virtuous in sin that we should even want to pursue it - let alone justify it.

                        The heart of the matter...

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

The warning …..”turning the grace of God into lasciviousness” G766

Jde 1:4 - For there are certain mencrept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation,ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, ^G766 

Mar 7:22 - Thefts, covetousness,wickedness, deceit,lasciviousness, ^G766 an evil eye,blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

Rom 13:13 - Let us walk honestly,as in the day; not in rioting anddrunkenness, not in chambering andwantonness, ^G766 not in strife and envying.
 

2Co 12:21 - And lest, when I comeagain, my God will humble me amongyou, and that I shall bewail manywhich have sinned already, and havenot repented of the uncleanness andfornication and lasciviousness ^G766which they have committed.
 

Gal 5:19 - Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness,lasciviousness, ^G766
 

Eph 4:19 - Who being past feelinghave given themselves over unto lasciviousness, ^G766 to work alluncleanness with greediness.
 

1Pe 4:3 - For the time past of ourlife may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked inlasciviousness, ^G766 lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, andabominable idolatries:
 

2Pe 2:18 - For when they speakgreat swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh,through much wantonness, ^G766 those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

[Duck]

18 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

As noted in the OP (see asterisk), the last part of that verse is only included in the KJV and very few other translations, because it is not in older texts.

It is in older texts actually - the latin vulgate, douay, koine greek, aramaic, websters, majority, World English Bible, etc....so.... i ask you, will there be condemnation (damnation) for believers who walk in the flesh (ie. Sin)?

 

[Dennis1209]

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

It`s not that people become `unborn,` for we are `in the process of being saved.` We live in time and we have our will to obey the Holy Spirit or not. If we do not repent after we have been convicted be the Holy Spirit, over time our conscience becomes hardened. Thus, we `fall way.` (Heb. 6: 4 - 6) 

Who can keep us in Christ? the Holy Spirit. And if we continually reject His conviction then we willfully become darkened again in our conscience and life. The Holy Spirit is rejected and thus we have no hope of receiving eternal life. 

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. A spiritual rebirth that we cannot be unborn from:

In a nutshell, I agree, but there is so much discussion for Hebrews 6:4-6. These verses have always been the most unsettling three verses in the Bible for me. Can a genuine born-again believer lose his or her Salvation? Is Salvation and eternal security conditional? There certainly are a lot of conjunctions attached to it here and elsewhere in scripture.

My view is, a true convert to Christianity cannot and will not apostatize. Nothing or no one can pluck us out of the secure hand of God. We will remain faithful to the end.

I have studied these passages more than most others and accumulated many notes. Many scholars affirm, and it is evident the audience spoken to are "professing" (keyword) Christians.

The author of Hebrews does not state this has happened to anyone. Is it hypothetical, a possibility, or is it going to happen?

I see two main theological camps on interpreting these verses: Calvinism vs. Arminianism and Judaism vs. Christianity.

Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. Did Agrippa go to heaven or hell?

In my estimation, almost or close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades, we are either genuinely saved, or not, there is no middle ground or purgatory.

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

In the age of Grace, does God bestow gifts and blessings upon the saved and the lost? Many preachers claim a large percentage of professing Christians in the church pew are not genuinely saved. If a professing Christian tastes and partakes in some of the spiritual gifts from God, then decides 72 virgins sound better, or butter belly Buddha is the ticket, he or she has apostatized and was not truly converted. The same can be said for almost converts who reverted back to Judaism me thinks.

I do not claim my studies and conclusions are correct. I still grapple with the context and intent.