Being Called, Being Chosen

[Marathoner]

11 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

Seems like  two excellent resources to me.

Agreed, but how the Lord chose me isn't common. I heard the Lord years before He revealed Himself to me. Then, after He revealed Himself, He chose me. The Lord said it was time for me to come to Him, so that's what I did. 

That runs afoul of what many believe. We've heard of Muslims receiving visions and dreams from the Lord, yes? I share much in common with them. Christ called them to Him.

Edited August 5, 2024 by Marathoner

[Neighbor]

12 hours ago, In the Clouds said:

Can we discuss being called?  And what then?  Are we chosen?  Or are we chosen and then get the call?

I personally think that all are called; but, depending on how we receive and act upon that calling will determine if we are chosen.

Called:  a general call to see God is present in all of creation. Not all get to understand even that general call, because it does not suit God's purpose that all be enabled to do so. See Romans 9

[Neighbor]

3 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

Agreed, but how the Lord chose me isn't common

Perhaps his manner of calling is not ever common, but instead is always very personal, hand of God engraved. 

[Marathoner]

13 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

Perhaps his manner of calling is not ever common, but instead is always very personal, hand of God engraved. 

Absolutely. 

[In the Clouds]

1 hour ago, warrior12 said:

Asking the question you the poster asked should entail at least a brief examination of the two beliefs stated above.  Why, because there is much discussion, agreements and disagreements on both.  It would then give you a better insight of how both sides see the question of "free will" vs " predestination" , which is really the OP question in his own words. 

When one get into that discussion, it will lead to a deeper study of scripture and also stir up emotions as you hear the words and meanings in depth from commentators, pastors, teachers and believers in general.  Yes, it can even cause to see your loved ones as in a forever lost state or condemnation.  If I am incorrect, please readers correct my views or state the correct postions.  

It's a long study and answer to your question will be your conviction as you study scripture and form your theology with the teachings you agree with.  There are numerous books and sermons on those topics and only you can determine which you see as worthy.

One pastor put it this way to me.  He said it is like two trains running on tracs side by side .

 

Thank you for your input and advice.  I will take this into consideration.

Most of my study has been through the Bible, boots on the ground in Israel and methodological translations of the Greek and Hebrew.  I have avoided some men's  and denominational teachings because so much is opinion and well... full of man and not scripture.  But, I am open to an enriching lesson.  Prayer, Biblical discernment and the Holy Spirit will be my guides.

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, In the Clouds said:

Thank you for your input and advice.  I will take this into consideration.

Most of my study has been through the Bible, boots on the ground in Israel and methodological translations of the Greek and Hebrew.  I have avoided some men's  and denominational teachings because so much is opinion and well... full of man and not scripture.  But, I am open to an enriching lesson.  Prayer, Biblical discernment and the Holy Spirit will be my guides.

I believe there are different 'levels' of understanding to be found and therein lies some of the confusion we are faced with.  As for me, I am led to believe there is this way, simple and straight forward as

Chosen, not of their own free will (at least not in this age).  Example

Luke 1 

Zechariah's Song

67And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying,

68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for He hath visited and redeemed His people,

69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

76And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

77To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

78Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

79To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

80And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.  

Also, OT

Jer 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you and before you were born I sanctified you a prophet to the nations I ordained you. 


again, I believe this is an example of chosen, not 'called'.  Then there is called vs chosen on this level

Romans 10
8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

19But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

20But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

21But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

  
Also

Mt 22
2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, 3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. 4Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. 5But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: 6And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. 7But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. 9Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. 10So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.



11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14For many are called, but few are chosen.


2822 klétos - called, invited, summoned by hearing the words of God to salvation,
from kaleō, to call, summon

the call/invitation that goes out to all people through His word.   God desires every person to call on Him to receive Salvation, not all do.


1588 eklektos - select, by implication, favorite, elect, select
from 1586 eklégomai - to select, choose, chosen from

 

  

[enoob57]

The idea of God choosing for individual salvation cannot be found specifically stated in Scripture… but one verse in particular states the complete impossibility of such

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)

⁹The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

What the calvinist will then do is to claim mystery… However, they are not purporting mystery but rather irrational or without reason as you cannot have God claiming not willing any should perish and God elects some and dams others…

Of all the Scripture there is one topic God specifically calls man to reason with Him
 

Isaiah 1:18 (KJV)

¹⁸Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

So you have the dead end in calvinism… they claim you cannot reason (above) and God calls us to reason with Him… 

Take away election as to individual salvation and problem solved… election is to purpose and service not to individual salvation…

[Marathoner]

4 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

The idea of God choosing for individual salvation cannot be found specifically stated in Scripture… but one verse in particular states the complete impossibility of such

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)

⁹The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

What the calvinist will then do is to claim mystery… However, they are not purporting mystery but rather irrational or without reason as you cannot have God claiming not willing any should perish and God elects some and dams others…

Of all the Scripture there is one topic God specifically calls man to reason with Him
 

Isaiah 1:18 (KJV)

¹⁸Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

So you have the dead end in calvinism… they claim you cannot reason (above) and God calls us to reason with Him… 

Take away election as to individual salvation and problem solved… election is to purpose and service not to individual salvation…

I agree, brother. Another example of being chosen according to the will and purpose of the Lord: the man born blind from John 9. It was so the power of God would be displayed in Him. 

So, there is a purpose regarding being chosen by the Lord in such a way. "Purpose and service" is an excellent way of putting it.

[PATrobas]

I think of it this way. 'I am not saved because I am of the elect. I am the elect because I am saved.' All who exercise faith unto salvation are the elect. But you don't join the ranks of the elect until you are saved. I was called. I responded by faith. I was chosen to be saved.

Edited August 5, 2024 by PATrobas
added last sentence.

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, enoob57 said:

The idea of God choosing for individual salvation cannot be found specifically stated in Scripture… but one verse in particular states the complete impossibility of such

How does that one verse state the complete impossibility of God choosing an individual for salvation to you?  

Anyway, 

4Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

6Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.

7But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.

8Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the LORD.

9Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth.

10See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.

So, these FACTS are written

1 And CAME the word of YHVH TO Jeremiah

2 BEFORE he was born he was 

6942 qadash 
to be set apart or consecrated
(isn't that what 'holy' means also?  How could he have been set apart before being born if not CHOSEN to be so?  That is why having no 'doctrines' to dictate what can be correct and what can't is so easy, just take what is written as His Truth and no problems)


5414 nathan: to give, put, set

as a 

5030 nabi, a spokesman, speaker, prophet 


3. He was TOLD what would be taking place, "to all to whom I shall send you you shall go and all whatever I command you you shall speak"


that may not come across as 'chosen' to some, but when employing 'the simplicity of Christ' to what is written there, being CHOSEN is clearly seen.  Surely there must be other Scripture(s) 

 
How does the fact that NOT ALL followed after the dragon IN the HEAVEN age figure into your thinking?  Couldn't the 'salvation' issue simply have been taken care of from that time?
 

1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

9When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

12Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

13That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

14It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

15And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.



Doesn't that fit in perfectly with ECC 1
 

9The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

10Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

11There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

along with

Rev 20 speaking to A New Heaven and a New Earth

1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Going back to before there ever was an earth...
 

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.  



(Not to be confused with what is coming in the future
The Beast Out of the Sea

1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

7 heads
10 horns
7 crowns upon his heads

vs

7 heads
10 horns
10 crowns upon his horns

and upon his heads the name of blasphemy)



Now there is either some way in which to fit that into this age or not.  If not, then how did you reckon it?  



Isn't Isaiah 1 written about Judah's Rebellion?  

1The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

2Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

3The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.

4Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

5Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

6From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

7Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.

8And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.

9Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Meaningless Offerings

10Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

11To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

12When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

13Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

15And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

16Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

17Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

19If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

20But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

How did it all work out?  How many fell in a day because they forsook the LORD God?  We just see it differently.  I only wish you had given as many verses as I had or at least took the ones I put forth and showed them to be incorrect to your way of thinking.