Being Called, Being Chosen

[farouk]

30 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

How does that one verse state the complete impossibility of God choosing an individual for salvation to you?  

Anyway, 

4Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

6Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.

7But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.

8Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the LORD.

9Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth.

10See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.

So, these FACTS are written

1 And CAME the word of YHVH TO Jeremiah

2 BEFORE he was born he was 

6942 qadash 
to be set apart or consecrated
(isn't that what 'holy' means also?  How could he have been set apart before being born if not CHOSEN to be so?  That is why having no 'doctrines' to dictate what can be correct and what can't is so easy, just take what is written as His Truth and no problems)


5414 nathan: to give, put, set

as a 

5030 nabi, a spokesman, speaker, prophet 


3. He was TOLD what would be taking place, "to all to whom I shall send you you shall go and all whatever I command you you shall speak"


that may not come across as 'chosen' to some, but when employing 'the simplicity of Christ' to what is written there, being CHOSEN is clearly seen.  Surely there must be other Scripture(s) 

 
How does the fact that NOT ALL followed after the dragon IN the HEAVEN age figure into your thinking?  Couldn't the 'salvation' issue simply have been taken care of from that time?
 

1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

9When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

12Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

13That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

14It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

15And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.



Doesn't that fit in perfectly with ECC 1
 

9The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

10Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

11There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

along with

Rev 20 speaking to A New Heaven and a New Earth

1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Going back to before there ever was an earth...
 

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.  



(Not to be confused with what is coming in the future
The Beast Out of the Sea

1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

7 heads
10 horns
7 crowns upon his heads

vs

7 heads
10 horns
10 crowns upon his horns

and upon his heads the name of blasphemy)



Now there is either some way in which to fit that into this age or not.  If not, then how did you reckon it?  



Isn't Isaiah 1 written about Judah's Rebellion?  

1The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

2Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

3The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.

4Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

5Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

6From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

7Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.

8And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.

9Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Meaningless Offerings

10Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

11To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

12When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

13Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

15And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

16Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

17Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

19If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

20But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

How did it all work out?  How many fell in a day because they forsook the LORD God?  We just see it differently.  I only wish you had given as many verses as I had or at least took the ones I put forth and showed them to be incorrect to your way of thinking.   
  

Hi @DeighAnn There's this clear passage also:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

¹⁴ Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Thessalonians 2.13-14)

[In the Clouds]

Deighann, will you please condense your comments and stick to the subject?

[enoob57]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

How does that one verse state the complete impossibility of God choosing an individual for salvation to you? 

The obvious plain statement of Scripture..

[enoob57]

3 hours ago, farouk said:

Hi @DeighAnn There's this clear passage also:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

¹⁴ Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Thessalonians 2.13-14)

The key to properly understand written material at a specific time and to a specific people is called historical context ... here is a proper hermeneutic of historical context of 2 Thessalonians 2.13-14
2 Thessalonians 2:13: With Response to Paul Washer – SOTERIOLOGY 101 

It is most noteworthy also to understand Augustine of Hippo was 4th century and prior to that no mention of individualized elective elements in historical documents... 

[farouk]

47 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

The key to properly understand written material at a specific time and to a specific people is called historical context ... here is a proper hermeneutic of historical context of 2 Thessalonians 2.13-14
2 Thessalonians 2:13: With Response to Paul Washer – SOTERIOLOGY 101 

It is most noteworthy also to understand Augustine of Hippo was 4th century and prior to that no mention of individualized elective elements in historical documents... 

2 Thessalonians 2.13-14 predates those 4th century documents.

[enoob57]

21 minutes ago, farouk said:

2 Thessalonians 2.13-14 predates those 4th century documents.

The whole point is you need the historical realities / understandings of those at the time of the writing... not the 4th century rendition!

[Truswell]

19 hours ago, AdHoc said:

To answer, I choose the following scripture as it contains the contentious words;

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Rom.8:28–30.

This passage is not complicated. What is complicated is trying to fit this passage to contemporary Church doctrine. Contemporary Doctrine in about 95% of Denominations is that a man must believe and confess Jesus and go to heaven when he dies. For those who don't hear, hear and not believe and who do evil, go to hell. The Bible says something different. It says that God had a plan with mankind to have him in His image and likeness, and for this man to bring God's type of rule to earth (Gen.1:26-28). Throughout the Bible this plan does not change and the Bible closes with a "Renewed", or "Made Pristine" earth (Lit. Gk.), with a city made of men, and having the glory of God, coming from heaven to earth and ruling.

Verse 28 says that any event in the life of one who loves God is used by God to profit him if he is called according to God's purpose. The word "according to" in the Greek means "in the manner of". Now, examples are worth a thousand words. Peter was called and Judas was called. Peter's failure was dire. Salvation is dependent on vocally confessing Jesus, not denying Him. But Peter was called according to God's plan of admitting fault and seeking mercy. Judas admitted his fault but did not seek mercy. So God's call did not profit him.

Verse 29 is the crucial verse. The 95% who get it wrong do one simple thing wrong. They substitute the words "conformed to His image" with "SALVATION". But NOWHERE in the whole Bible is a man predestinated to SALVATION. This verse tells what the GOAL of salvation is - to have a man IN THE IMAGE of Christ. So let us explain what IS written and not what we insert because of preconceived ideas. We have to address the word "foreknowledge" because in that foreknowledge you are called. A man is CALLED according to God's FOREKNOWLEDGE to be saved FOR THE PREDETERMINED GOAL of being in Christ's image.

What then is "foreknowledge"? Every year, around the world, those countries which can afford an Air Force, advertise for pilots. Thousands of young men, with various motivations, apply fr pilot selection. But why have a selection? Are not all men free to fly aeroplanes. No! The various Air Forces are about to invest a quarter of a million dollars in each pupil and give a 5 million dollar airplane into his hands. The whole chain of command in the Air Force is answerable to someone concerning men and machines. So each Air Force has a selection. For what? To gain FOREKNOWLEDGE of each man's natural talent. The Air Force wants to KNOW if the en they give so much to are CAPABLE. So, after three or four weeks of rigorous tests, of the ten thousand that applied - 150 are left. All men are free to apply. All men are free to fly. But the Investor of tax-payer's money wants FOREKNOWLEDGE. Base on past experience, will this young man become a top-gun or will he waste millions of dollars and kill himself because he lacked aptitude?

God is about to CALL men to fellowship with Himself. But God KNOW that most will refuse Him. The man is not in any way tampered with. He would refuse so nothing is withheld from him. For God, Who KNOWS the beginning from the end, does just what you would do, and what any Air Force would do with a blind man. The an is blind to his sins and he is blind by birth. In God's foreknowledge this man would just insult God.

Now, I am aware that there are various applications of "called". This post is already long, so I leave those other applications for specific discussion.

God knows everyone, including Adam and Eve from the foundation of the earth, suffering on the cross, and dying for all those who of their own free will choose to follow Him all the days of their life. Adam and Eve made the wrong choice. 

Edited August 6, 2024 by Truswell

[Neighbor]

13 hours ago, enoob57 said:

The idea of God choosing for individual salvation cannot be found specifically stated in Scripture

May I present His servant and my Lord's friend Paul?

[Truswell]

20 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Hi, Hmm but is that what God does? Is it what he did  with Moses? With Gideon? With Paul for that matter? Or did God just up and say you are it. Go. 

Paul was chosen, so was Judas, Gideon, Samuel, Moses, and there will be others for a specific work, but for salvation, all are chosen, although few heed the call.

Edited August 6, 2024 by Truswell

[Neighbor]

1 hour ago, Truswell said:

Adam and Eve made the wrong choice. 

The first man made many a wrong choice. He also received a covering, by the mercy and grace of God at a great cost to God.