Considering Suleiman’s restoration of Jerusalem in 1492; does Daniel’s Seventy weeks (Dan.9.24-27); teach a double 70 week prophecy

[WilliamL]

On 8/21/2024 at 4:26 AM, Desopixi Seilynam said:

On 8/20/2024 at 7:11 AM, Bible nuggets said:

the word, for 70, and week, are basically the same word

So according to that the text is saying;

"Seventy seventies are determined upon thy people...."  yes?

Incorrect. Here is the Hebrew:

שָׁבֻעִים שִׁבְעִים

Notice the different vowels points. The word on the right, pronounced shaw-bu-ym, means seven. The word on the left, pronounced shy-bym, means seventy. So read "seven seventies."

[Bible nuggets]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Incorrect. Here is the Hebrew:

שָׁבֻעִים שִׁבְעִים

Notice the different vowels points. The word on the right, pronounced shaw-bu-ym, means seven. The word on the left, pronounced shy-bym, means seventy. So read "seven seventies."

Well it's not in reverse order, so it would be 70 Sevens, and if you put it in reverse the 70 would be before the Sevens i.e weeks.  I Can't find any place where that word is used where seventies, would make since, it's always 70. Can you find one because if not than your rendering is obsolete. 

Edited August 23, 2024 by Bible nuggets

[Bible nuggets]

On 8/21/2024 at 6:26 AM, Desopixi Seilynam said:

So according to that the text is saying;

"Seventy seventies are determined upon thy people...."  yes?

A captivity is 70 years, and that is the context,
Daniel was reading Jeremiah where it talks about 70 years. 
Daniel 9:2

And Daniel is inside of a 70 year captivity. (Daniel 1:21)
Understanding such, and that Jeremiah said that at the end
of 70 years Jerusalem would be destroyed (Jeremiah 25:12,18)
Daniel therefore prays concerning Jerusalem: Daniel 9:16.

The clear context is the seventy year captivity Daniel was in.

Gabriel tells Daniel that 70 such captivities would happen.

Seventy seventies.
Not weeks, captivities, a captivity is seventy years.

 

 

All this sounds good unless you read the scriptures after. And changing a word for sevens,  translated weeks all the time, feast of weeks,  not captivity,  sorry it's not really holding up.

[Bible nuggets]

On 8/21/2024 at 6:26 AM, Desopixi Seilynam said:

So according to that the text is saying;

"Seventy seventies are determined upon thy people...."  yes?

A captivity is 70 years, and that is the context,
Daniel was reading Jeremiah where it talks about 70 years. 
Daniel 9:2

And Daniel is inside of a 70 year captivity. (Daniel 1:21)
Understanding such, and that Jeremiah said that at the end
of 70 years Jerusalem would be destroyed (Jeremiah 25:12,18)
Daniel therefore prays concerning Jerusalem: Daniel 9:16.

The clear context is the seventy year captivity Daniel was in.

Gabriel tells Daniel that 70 such captivities would happen.

Seventy seventies.
Not weeks, captivities, a captivity is seventy years.

 

 

That word is never translated captivity. So I don't know your justification for changing a word, into something that does not even resemble the definition. Your conclusion is that by inference, you can change a word to mean something forien from its several occurrences, translated weeks, i.e feast of weeks. 

Edited August 23, 2024 by Bible nuggets

[Bible nuggets]

On 8/17/2024 at 8:30 AM, Dave Watchman said:

I don't mind you believing this. I wouldn't be worried about convincing you otherwise. This might have been something that I would have agreed with as recently as 2013. Even now you are probably more than 90% correct.

Isaiah 61 ►
English Standard Version     

The Year of the LORD’s Favor

1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
because the LORD has anointed me
to bring good news to the poor;
he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim liberty to the captives,
and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2to proclaim the year of the LORD’s favor,,,

"And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” 

and the day of vengeance of our God;
to comfort all who mourn;
3to grant to those who mourn in Zion—
to give them a beautiful headdress instead of ashes,
the oil of gladness instead of mourning,
the garment of praise instead of a faint spirit;
that they may be called oaks of righteousness,
the planting of the LORD, that he may be glorified.

Ultimately, it is God who has the authority to tell others that this event or that event has yet another fulfillment, or multiple to come. Or to say that: “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” 

It's easy to understand that there's only one 1290 day time period of the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12, and only one time period of 1335 days when the saints are blessed reaching the end of. And there's only one, one thousand year millennium in Revelation 20, and that there's only one 5 month span of time when the men who have taken the mark of the beast will feel the scorpion's sting taking place in Chapter 9. There's only one span of 1260 days when the Two Witnesses will be given authority, and then lay dead in the streets for 3.5 days in Chapter 11. And only one span of 42 months when the second beast gives his authority to the composite beast in Chapter 13. And so on and so forth.

But Christ the Messiah has two comings, two visitations. And Daniel 9 is the only place that sets out the timing for them in great detail.

I'm not sure we can find an all purpose rule, a standard hermeneutic, which can easily address that enigmatic language in Daniel 9.

If the Old Time Jews would have redeemed the 70 weeks, maybe a second coming would not have been necessary. Jesus would have gathered them then and there, as a hen gathers it's chicks.

Daniel 9 had to be written in a tricky way, where a provision for a second visitation could be embedded within the text. Isaac Newton originally suggested this in the middle ages. He thought that's the reason why the weeks were split up as 7 AND 62, instead of Daniel saying 69 weeks until Messiah the Prince. People have been looking at this a long time, it's not a new theory.

And as I continue to believe that the time to post the proof for this is past, it's still looking to me like the historical facts are speaking for themselves now. The prophetic time periods spoken of by the Prophet Daniel, are forcing the understanding, not the text alone. So if I am correct, if the author from the book mentioned in the post by the OP is sort of correct, it points to a new understanding in the differences between verses 9:26, and 9:27. 

Even so, 
Come Lord Jesus.

Peaceful Sabbath.  

Don't think anyone can be 100% when it comes to prophecy,  we gotta stay watching,  but as thevdays move forward,  it will become more clear 

[WilliamL]

On 8/22/2024 at 8:02 PM, Bible nuggets said:

On 8/22/2024 at 4:37 PM, WilliamL said:

Incorrect. Here is the Hebrew:

שָׁבֻעִים שִׁבְעִים

Notice the different vowels points. The word on the right, pronounced shaw-bu-ym, means seven. The word on the left, pronounced shy-bym, means seventy. So read "seven seventies."

Well it's not in reverse order, so it would be 70 Sevens, and if you put it in reverse the 70 would be before the Sevens i.e weeks.  I Can't find any place where that word is used where seventies, would make since, it's always 70. Can you find one because if not than your rendering is obsolete. 

My bad on the translation. In Hebrew, which reads from right to left, the noun here, sevens (plural) is followed by the adjective, seventy. So this correctly reads in English, "Seventy sevens."

Adjectives follow nouns in Hebrew, whereas in English, adjectives precede nouns.

 

Edited August 26, 2024 by WilliamL

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 8/22/2024 at 9:17 PM, Bible nuggets said:

Your conclusion is that by inference, you can change a word to mean something forien from its several occurrences,

No,  by context, Gabriel is addressing what Daniel was reading and concerned about;
the 70 year captivity that Jeremiah wrote about. Daniel 9:1-2 is the immediate context of 9:24.  That is how we arrive at the correct translation; by the clear context.

Seventy captivities.

And in history we can see that multiple captivities have happened.

 

Also as we keep reading the captivities translation fits perfectly with the time frame we know, whereas for the weeks translation one has to infer years from weeks
when reading verse 25.

"shall be seven weeks and 62 weeks" Does not add up to hundreds of years.

"shall be seven captivities and 62 weeks" Is 490 years and 62 weeks.

 

Someone came round and changed it all to 'weeks'.

But clearly as we examine verse 25 "weeks" is not what it means.

 

 

[Bible nuggets]

I can't find where it is translated captivities,  and I don't remember Israel  having 70 captivities 

[Dave Watchman]

On 8/23/2024 at 3:24 AM, Bible nuggets said:

Don't think anyone can be 100% when it comes to prophecy,  we gotta stay watching,  but as thevdays move forward,  it will become more clear 

I agree. But I think we're still on track. I'm 99.9% sure. It has to be happening now. We're still in the heptad, the "days" continue their forward movement, until the heptad completes.

Jesus confirms the covenant with many for one week. This is not the same week from the first century, this is one complete week of years happening in the end times. You can't get this from the text alone. If Newton, and therefore Widener, is correct, then the timing itself forces one of the verses of Daniel 9 to be speaking specifically to the end times. Our times.

If we go past the point where I think it is, I'll boost this thread up and post some of my empirical. In the meantime, I think I figured out a new answer for the dual prophecy guy. Maybe I'll write a note on that and clarify to see if I can change his mind on it while we are waiting.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

 

[Dave Watchman]

On 8/14/2024 at 12:28 PM, Progressive Truth said:

Apocalyptic prophecy has “only one fulfillment”,  which is proven by those events within prophecy that have been fulfilled to date. If this were not true, who then has the authority to tell others that this event or that event has yet another fulfillment, or multiple to come. Such reasoning makes the more sure word of apocalyptic prophecy into a nose of wax.  

I would discourage anyone from going down that road. 

Too late for the laity, I've already gone down that road.

There have been previous Bible Prophecy expositors who have noticed: "Apocalyptic prophecy has “only one fulfillment”,  which is proven by those events within prophecy that have been fulfilled to date." 

"Apocalyptic prophecy has a beginning point in time, and an ending point in time. When the subject matter changes, a new prophecy begins. There are 17 Apocalyptic prophecies, and 18 prophetic time periods in the Books of Daniel and Revelation.

Before I show how Daniel 9 is different, how Daniel 9 is not just any ordinary Apocalyptic prophecy, it should be helpful to first review the other prophecy types for comparison. Then it should be easy for all to spot it.

I always remember hearing of how the Bible is 2/3's prophecy. But not all of that prophecy is of the same type.  

Five Types of Bible Prophecy:

1) Local Prophecy

These would include Noah's flood, or Jonah's visit to the people of Nineveh. Maybe that old time king who saw his shadow move backwards, and Moses' dealings with Pharaoh and the curses of Egypt..

2) Messianic Prophecy

These had to do specifically with our Lord's first Visitation. Like Isaiah 52

He Was Pierced for Our Transgressions
Behold, my servant shall act wisely;
he shall be high and lifted up,
and shall be exalted.

 As many were astonished at you—
 his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance,
 and his form beyond that of the children of mankind—
 so shall he sprinkle many nations.

Kings shall shut their mouths because of him,
for that which has not been told them they see,
and that which they have not heard they understand.

3) Day of the Lord Prophecy

Very peculiar in their structure. Like Isaiah 13. John MacArthur calls them near/far prophecies. In a Day of the Lord Prophecy the prophet can begin in an ancient Day of the Lord event to do with the Babylonians, and then can seem to peer down through the millennia to the final and ultimate Day of the Lord event that will include all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.

4) Judaic Prophecy
 
These are conditional in nature. Prophecies that pertained specifically to Ancient Israel. If you do this, then I will do that. If they put away the bodies of their dead kings, then show them the plan of the Temple.

"If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. All these blessings will come on you and accompany you if you obey the Lord your God

5) Apocalyptic Prophecy
 
Apocalyptic Prophesy has unique characteristics. These end time prophecies hold to chronological order. Each of these have a beginning point in time, and an ending point in time. In Revelation, when that chronological order is broken, and the subject matter changes, a new prophecy will begin. There are 17 Apocalyptic prophecies, and 18 prophetic time periods, in the Books of Daniel and Revelation.

But Daniel 9 is not just any ordinary Apocalyptic Prophecy. Daniel 9 is not JUST an Apocalyptic Prophecy. Read the descriptions and see if Daniel 9 matches and meets the specifications with all prophecy types.

Daniel 9 is a Local Prophecy, speaking to Daniel's People in the first century,

Daniel 9 is a Messianic Prophecy speaking to both of Christ's Visitations, first where he came as the Lamb to take away our sins, and the destruction of Jerusalem, then to the second Visitation with the consummation when the decreed end will be poured out on the desolator,

Daniel 9 is a Day of the Lord Prophecy which speaks to both the destruction of Jerusalem, and the decreed end poured out on the desolator at the consummation.

Daniel 9 is a Judaic Prophecy where Daniel's People had the chance to redeem the first set of 70 weeks which were "cut off", (chawthak), for them, they had the chance to let their Messiah gather them as a hen gathers it's chicks.

And Daniel 9 is an Apocalyptic Prophecy predicting a 70th "week" which would precede the consummation, which is determined, that will be poured out on the desolator.

Because there are two Visitations of Christ, there needed to be two timelines imbedded into that enigmatic text. Hence the 7 AND the 62 weeks. Until Messiah the Prince. If the Script didn't already split up the two timeframes, Newton wouldn't have been looking for an end time decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. And I would not be able to say that the decrees are here, the time has been fulfilled. The decrees are timed out again at the same 7 and 62 week intervals. This can't be random.

Daniel 9 is not just any Apocalyptic prophecy that can be constrained by any man made hermeneutic. 

Peaceful Sabbath.