Warning: Don't be caught sleeping when the "Thief" comes!

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
...
15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ?

 1 Cor.1:1-3, 6:15.

Thanks Ad Hoc, I missed `Paul and others,` as I tend to read too quickly. I have adjusted my comment.

[BornAgain490]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

No for the 12 pre-cross apostles. However, the apostles of the ascended Lord are in the Body of Christ.

The apostles are all Jews: Peter Andrew John James Matthew Philip Thomas Bartholomew Thaddeus James son of Alpheus Simon the zealot Matthias were disciples of Christ before Jesus went to the cross and after Jesus resurrected and ascended. Paul, a Jew,  was converted on the Damascus road a year or so aftet Christ ascended. 

Are you saying that Paul is in the only Jew in the body of Christ?  

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

The apostles are all Jews: Peter Andrew John James Matthew Philip Thomas Bartholomew Thaddeus James son of Alpheus Simon the zealot Matthias were disciples of Christ before Jesus went to the cross and after Jesus resurrected and ascended. Paul, a Jew,  was converted on the Damascus road a year or so aftet Christ ascended. 

Are you saying that Paul is in the only Jew in the body of Christ?  

No. There are many Jews in the Body of Christ. I am referring to the 12 Apostles of the Lamb who are not in the Body of Christ. 

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

What did Paul mean when he wrote Galatians 3:26-29? 

"For ye are all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."  

Hi BornAgain,

Sorry I missed your posts. And thank you for asking so nicely.

In the Body of Christ we know that there is neither Jew nor Gentile. We are OF Abraham`s seed which is Christ. We are NOT of Abraham`s natural seed. 

[BornAgain490]

4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

No. There are many Jews in the Body of Christ. I am referring to the 12 Apostles of the Lamb who are not in the Body of Christ. 

How can the the 12 apostles not be in the body of Christ if they're disciples of Christ? 

[Cntrysner]

3 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

How can the the 12 apostles not be in the body of Christ if they're disciples of Christ? 

 There is neither Jew or Gentile in the body. If they remained Jews (Judaism) they are not accepted. An example would be Peter refusing to got to a Gentile or James demanding Paul to adhere to temple rituals.

[Cntrysner]

On 9/20/2024 at 6:55 PM, AdHoc said:

I will answer this section. I judge it to be the essence of your doctrine.

The first observation is that if the plain language of each scripture is taken, there is no verse you gave that our Lord changed His Body to spirit substance for His ascension.

Christ transfigured at ascension, if you accept that truth, what changed of His substance if it wasn’t His body and why? 

Paul was blinded by His glorious appearance (Act 9,22,26) and in Act 26:16 Christ said …But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee . In 1Co 15:8 Paul said..  And last of all he was seen of me also,  In Gal 1:16 … To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 

Reveal…From G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.

John in revelation describes Christ's appearance…Rev 1:14- His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15- And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 17-  And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead.

Christ ascended leads the way to the glory of God in the Spiritual Body of Christ, not a reconstituted resurrected flesh, to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord (2 Co 5:8), For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ (Php 3:20)

Heb 6:1  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 
Heb 6:2  Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Eph 4:10  He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 
Eph 4:13  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 

On 9/20/2024 at 6:55 PM, AdHoc said:

You must add conjecture. Something like this.

"Jesus took a human body. Jesus is God. God is a Spirit. Jesus body is spirit-substance".

Christ’s Body was Spirit substance with God before He became flesh and He returned to that substance with God as fully God. (Phil. 2:6) Who being in the form of God.(Col. 1:15) Who is the image of the invisible God." (Heb. 1:3) Who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person.

On 9/20/2024 at 6:55 PM, AdHoc said:

But the reader will not what the plain wording says. Now I will give the reason why those verses that indicate some sort of metamorphosis. But first I will show the utter impossibility of an ascended Lord in spirit-form. It is this.

Matthew 12:40 says the Lord will spend 3 days in the heart of the earth. Ephesians 4:8-9 confirms this adding that our Lord FIRST Descended. When our Lord met Mary in John 20 he told her not to touch Him. The reason is the fulfillment of the Wave Offering. Christ, firstfruits of those that slept, belongs to the Lord of the Harvest, and firstfruits were first for the Father (Lev.23). But that night He commanded His disciples to handle Him. The permission to touch him is because in John 20:17 Jesus told Mary that He HAD NOT ASCENDED YET and was about to do so. The events of that first night after Jesus was RAISED must be AFTER He ascended and returned - as He predicted in John 14. Thus, the statement in Luke 24 that he was flesh and bones was AFTER He ascended.

You need to provide scripture that Christ actually ascended before He allow them to touch Him, if not your point is conjecture. If he did ascend at that time it would indicate a second transfiguration but his body did not reflect any change from His resurrected body when He appeared to the disciples before the only recorded ascension.

 Touch in John 20:17 is “to attach oneself to” meaning Mary was clinging to Jesus. In Mathew 28:9 the women held His feet. See Got Questions “why did Jesus tell Mary not to touch Him”. Your use of Jesus saying “touch me not” to prove an assumed ascension prior to His appearing to the disciples is flawed at best.
 

On 9/20/2024 at 6:55 PM, AdHoc said:

Hebrews confirms this in another way. Christ had to enter the Holy of Holies of the heavenly Tabernacle to present His blood to the Father. The disciples could not have received the Holy Spirit until this was done.

But there is still another proof of the Body of Jesus being physical, even today. It is this; Our BODIES make up His Body (1st Cor.6:15). This is doubly confirmed by Ephesians 5:30. While the Church is a "Spiritual House" it is a PHYSICAL BODY. This the reason that when it comes to building the Church in Matthew 16 the great obstacle is HADES. At the death of a saint, the Church loses members

But your verses that show Jesus as a "Spirit" deserve a comment. I find the best way of explaining how Jesus is God, Man and Spirit at once is shown in John 7:39;

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

I have made the word "given" red because it does not appear in the original. The verse reads;

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

But in this form a difficulty arises. It reads then that the Holy Spirit was not yet in existence. The translators thought they could fix this by adding to scripture. Many students do this, but it was not necessary. It was not the Holy Spirit that was NOT YET, but "the Spirit WHICH THEY SHOULD RECEIVE". God's New Testament economy is not to replace the 613 laws of Moses with the 2,400 plus commands of the New Testament. God's "oikonomia" or "household management" is for Christ to have fulfilled every aspect of human life pleasing to God, then add it to Him in His divinity to make it part of Him, and the to dispense it to humans by living in their spirits. It is; "Christ IN YOU - the hope of glory".

So, as John 7:39 was spoken our Lord Jesus still needed one for event to make Him complete FOR THOSE HE WOULD DWELL IN. To complete the divine fulfillment of the prefect human life, Jesus still needed human death and human resurrection. These two human experiences were yet to be added to the Spirit THAT THE DISCIPLES WOULD RECEIVE on resurrection day (Jn.20:22). That is why the wording of 1st Corinthians 15:45 is "The Last Adam BECAME the Life-giving SPIRIT". It was not that the Holy Spirit needed to metamorph, but that a temporal human experience needed to become part of the divine Deity. This is beautifully show in Romans 8:1-2. The solution to the "body of this death" is not more Laws. neither is it more power in the flesh. The solution is to take Christ IN and then allow Him free reign to live out what He did in His human life.

The verses you have proffered are simply aspects of the Holy Spirit that were added or modified for God's dispensing of Christ to "conform us to the image of Christ" (Rom.8:29).

Lastly, the metamorphosis that Jesus underwent in Matthew 17 on the mount of Transfiguration was not physical body to spirit body. It was old body from Mary to resurrection body - the same as all living saints will experience at Christ's return (1st Cor.15:50-54). To be there as well, Moses' BODY (not some new spirit-body) needed to be fought for by Michael.

I think that I have presented enough facts to cast doubt on your present understanding. I would reconsider my arguments if I were you for the simple reason that your arguments are very close to those of Gnosticism. Although their teaching is varied, the spirit-substance of the MAN Jesus is one of them.

 

 

On 9/20/2024 at 6:55 PM, AdHoc said:

Here's my closing question with answer. When Israel see Christ burst through the clouds over Mount Olives, they mourn. Why? Because they see who they have PIERCED. That's 2,000 years after His ascension!

John describes His appearance (see above), there was no mention in his description of wounds, they will see who they have pierced does not translate to they will see a spear wound. Jesus’ wounds made Him almost unrecognizable (see Isaiah). You say His body did not change at resurrection or ascension. It is beyond me how you can believe Jesus’ crucified body so horribly disfigured appeared to anyone after resurrection or at His return. For some it is so easy to brush over the totality of His sufferings. The movie "The Passion of The Christ' I think was very close to reality, you should see it if you haven't already.

Thank you for your efforts in our discussions.

Edited September 22, 2024 by Cntrysner

[AdHoc]

13 minutes ago, Cntrysner said:

Christ transfigured at ascension, if you accept that truth, what changed of His substance if it wasn’t His body and why? 

Paul was blinded by His glorious appearance (Act 9,22,26) and in Act 26:16 Christ said …But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee . In 1Co 15:8 Paul said..  And last of all he was seen of me also,  In Gal 1:16 … To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 

Reveal…From G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.

John in revelation describes Christ's appearance…Rev 1:14- His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15- And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 17-  And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead.

Christ ascended leads the way to the glory of God in the Spiritual Body of Christ, not a reconstituted resurrected flesh, to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord (2 Co 5:8), For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ (Php 3:20)

Heb 6:1  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 
Heb 6:2  Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 

Eph 4:10  He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 
Eph 4:13  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 

Christ’s Body was Spirit substance with God before He became flesh and He returned to that substance with God as fully God. (Phil. 2:6) Who being in the form of God.(Col. 1:15) Who is the image of the invisible God." (Heb. 1:3) Who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person.

Php 3:20  For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 
 

Christ’s Body was Spirit substance with God before He became flesh and He returned to that substance with God as fully God. (Phil. 2:6) Who being in the form of God.(Col. 1:15) Who is the image of the invisible God." (Heb. 1:3) Who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person.

You need to provide scripture that Christ actually ascended before He allow them to touch Him, if not your point is conjecture. If he did ascend at that time it would indicate a second transfiguration but his body did not reflect any change from His resurrected body when He appeared to the disciples before the only recorded ascension.

 Touch in John 20:17 is “to attach oneself to” meaning Mary was clinging to Jesus. In Mathew 28:9 the women held His feet. See Got Questions “why did Jesus tell Mary not to touch Him”. Your use of Jesus saying “touch me not” to prove an assumed ascension prior to His appearing to the disciples is flawed at best.
 

 

John describes His appearance (see above), there was no mention in his description of wounds, they will see who they have pierced does not translate to they will see a spear wound. Jesus’ wounds made Him almost unrecognizable (see Isaiah). You say His body did not change at resurrection or ascension. It is beyond me how you can believe Jesus’ crucified body so horribly disfigured appeared to anyone after resurrection or at His return. For some it is so easy to brush over the totality of His sufferings. The movie "The Passion of The Christ' I think was very close to reality, you should see it if you haven't already.

Thank you for your efforts in our discussions.

Thank you too. I wish all debates would be carried out in this spirit. We might not agree, but I think we can break bread together.

Go well bro. We'll meet again soon on some other point.

[Marilyn C]

19 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

How can the the 12 apostles not be in the body of Christ if they're disciples of Christ? 

The 12 disciples/apostles were promised by the Lord that they would rule over Israel in the regeneration.

`So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed me will also sit on 12 thrones , judging the 12 tribes of Israel.` (Matt. 19: 28)

[BornAgain490]

4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

The 12 disciples/apostles were promised by the Lord that they would rule over Israel in the regeneration.

`So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed me will also sit on 12 thrones , judging the 12 tribes of Israel.` (Matt. 19: 28)

Dear sister, I agree with you in part, and disagree with you in part.

I agree with you that the faithful apostles of Christ have been promised a particular role in Christ's Kingdom, which is clearly announced in scripture by Christ.  (Matthew 19:28). 

I disagree with you that the faithful apostles are not in the the body of Christ. If the faithful apostles were faithful followers of Jesus Christ, where else could they be but in the body of Christ?

Because the faithful apostles are faithful followers of Christ, they are saved by God's grace, justified through faith, and sanctified (made holy) by the Holy Spirit, just like all faithful followers of Christ. Because they are faithful followers, justified and sanctified, they are children of God who will one day be glorified with Christ, just as all faithful followers of Christ will one day be. (Romans 8:28-30).  The complete number of faithful Jews and Gentiles throughout every generation comprise the Body of Christ. 

Jesus came to teach and instruct the will of the Father, (Matthew 7:16), and did indeed teach and intruct His faithful apostles in the will of the Father. (See, MML&J).

When God revealed to the faithful Peter that Jesus was the Christ, Jesus said He would build His church on such faith.  (Matthew 16:13-19).  The Church is the Body of Christ, and Jesus is its head. (Colossians 1:18). Clearly Peter is part of the church, and is therefore in the body of Christ. 

When the mother of John and James asked a favor of Jesus for her sons in Christ's kingdom, Jesus did not say they would not be with Him in His kingdom, but that what the mother was asking was reserved for whom the Father chose. (Matthew 20:20-23).  

After His resurrection and prior to His ascension, Jesus commanded His faithful apostles to go into all the word, to every nation, and teach them to observe  all that Jesus had commanded, in other words: go and make disciples, faithful followers, Christians to enter Christ's kingdom. (Matthew 28:19-20).  

There are only two types of people, whether dead or alive: either saved or lost.  Saved Jews (apostles included) and saved Gentiles are all in the same place, and that place is in the body of Christ. Lost Jews and lost Gentiles are forever separated from the presence of God.   Amen. 

Have a blessed day.