When, if ever, is deception acceptable?

[Neighbor]

12 hours ago, Tristen said:

My primary interest is in hearing where Christians draw the line on the acceptable use of deception, and why? 

Hi,

(IMO) Seems few, if any at all,  of the several  examples are spiritual deceptions, and thus are irrelevant to a discussion of sins against God. Most every precept of God may be turned into the ridiculous and made to seem foolishness by the various  ploys of the evil one.  

It's kinda like asking if God can make a rock so huge that he cannot lift it; a form of gamesmanship.

[Jayne]

9 hours ago, Sower said:

Joshua 2         Rahab's Deception

So the king of Jericho sent to Rahab and said, “Bring out the men who came to you and entered your house, for they have come to spy out the whole land.”

But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. So she said, “Yes, the men did come to me, but I did not know where they had come from. At dusk, when the gate was about to close, the men went out, and I do not know which way they went. Pursue them quickly, and you may catch them!” (But Rahab had taken them up to the roof and hidden them among the stalks of flax that she had laid out there.)

“Our lives for your lives!” the men agreed. “If you do not report our mission, we will show you kindness and faithfulness when the LORD gives us the land.”

Then Rahab let them down by a rope through the window, since the house where she lived was built into the wall of the city. “Go to the hill country,” she said, “so that your pursuers will not find you. Hide yourselves there for three days until they have returned; then go on your way.”

Rahab, in both the Old and New Testament, was never commended for lying.  She was commended for her "faith" [book of James] and her "hospitality to the spies" [book of Hebrews].

It was the lie that saved the spies, but she was never patted on the back for it.  

She is an example, James says,  of great faith - she and Abraham are the two examples he uses.

[Cyoder]

I think intention has a big impact on whether or not it is ok to be deceptive.  Was it ok to deceive Hitler during WWII? Spies saved countless lives and were able to provide information to help win the war.  Was this a sin?  I doubt it is a sin to help defeat evil.  I look at Matt Walsh the same way.  He was deceptive in making What is a woman and Am I racist to shine the light on evil. He never twisted their words or edited what they said, just recorded the truth and put it out for the world to see.  If these people were doing what was right, they would have been proud, not ashamed.

Another example, my ex-wife was obese for many years.  She would always get dressed and ask, "Do I look fat in this?".  What is the Christain thing to say?  Yes? That would have been the truth, but it also would have been cruel to say.  I would always encourage her and try to get her to make better decisions about her health, but I would never insult her like that.

[Cyoder]

11 hours ago, Jayne said:

I draw the line with people like Matt Walsh who do these things NOT to bring into light dark truths, but to mock people and make conservatives laugh at all the stupid sinners.  This is how he makes a living.

 

 

He makes money and it is entertaining, but it does shine a light on darkness.  Have you watched What is a woman?  It wasn't a comedy, it was disturbing.  Some of the people in that film were pure evil.  Manipulating and mutilating children in the name of "gender affirming care".  These people are letting children make decisions that will prevent them from ever having a child or a normal life.  He just filmed them and let them talk.  They dug their own grave.

[Jayne]

13 minutes ago, Cyoder said:

He makes money and it is entertaining, but it does shine a light on darkness.  Have you watched What is a woman?  It wasn't a comedy, it was disturbing.  Some of the people in that film were pure evil.  Manipulating and mutilating children in the name of "gender affirming care".  These people are letting children make decisions that will prevent them from ever having a child or a normal life.  He just filmed them and let them talk.  They dug their own grave.

Yes, I've seen several clips of it.  I did not find it entertaining.

[Cyoder]

1 minute ago, Jayne said:

Yes, I've seen several clips of it.  I did not find it entertaining.

I hope you found it disturbing.  Especially when he spoke to the surgeon who was performing these operations.  The one part that really made me sad was the woman he interviewed who went through all of the surgeries to become a "man".  I actually got choked up listening to how much this person suffered.  All of the side effects and complications that nobody even mentioned to her.  She was adamant that children should never be allowed to go through this and has turned into an activist against it.  She described the main motivation for pushing the transgender issue, money.  Therapists, doctors, surgeons and big pharma are making hundreds of millions of dollars on gender "affirming care".  I think that film saved some children and went a long way to getting these surgeries banned from being performed on minors.  I don't care what people do when they are adults.  That is between them and God, but children are a different story.

[AnOrangeCat]

16 minutes ago, Cyoder said:

She was adamant that children should never be allowed to go through this and has turned into an activist against it.  She described the main motivation for pushing the transgender issue, money.  Therapists, doctors, surgeons and big pharma are making hundreds of millions of dollars on gender "affirming care". 

I didn't see that particular video but at some point I saw someone on Youtube who went through the whole process of surgery for a sex change, then did it all again to go back once they realized it wasn't what she had envisioned and been told. She said this exact thing and emphasized that there's very little in the way of screening or going through the usual processes that would be done for people wanting a major surgery not for life saving reasons. Normally potential consequences would be explained and people would try to verify you were sure. Not so for transgender related matters, where it was apparently more like a conveyor belt of smiling people pushing her to go through with it. I found it pretty enlightening and interesting.

[Sower]

39 minutes ago, Jayne said:

Rahab, in both the Old and New Testament, was never commended for lying.  She was commended for her "faith" [book of James] and her "hospitality to the spies" [book of Hebrews].

It was the lie that saved the spies, but she was never patted on the back for it.  

She is an example, James says,  of great faith - she and Abraham are the two examples he uses.

The OP;   When, if ever, is deception acceptable?

I do understand it was her faith is what saved her. And the lives of "spies'.
But, would you say her deception, that saved the spies,  was  acceptable?  What would have been the alternative?

Another,

"Laban had gone to shear his sheep, and Rachel stole her father’s household gods. And Jacob tricked Laban the Aramean, by not telling him that he intended to flee"

"And Laban said to Jacob, “What have you done, that you have tricked me and driven away my daughters like captives of the sword? Why did you flee secretly and trick me, and did not tell me, so that I might have sent you away with mirth and songs, with tambourine and lyre?"   Genesis 31 

Basic tactics in most any military campaign makes use of deception, used by the good guys and bad.
I do not see a moral problem using deception when confronting evil forces, or saving lives.
I live in this real world yet for a time. I would use all deception available/necessary to save my family or the lives of others.
The word "HIDE!" (a deception) shouted when facing terror, is a normal instinct God gave us for survival.
I'll bet you, as I,  have hidden from some perceived harm a time or two in your life...

Thanks Jayne

 

[Mr. M]

15 hours ago, Tristen said:

Thinking about this, I realized that I accept deception as normal practice in many aspects of life. For example, it is a common sports strategy to indicate to an opposition that you intend one action, whilst planning to do something else. Likewise, more seriously, in the context of war - one might (for example) leak false information to an enemy. I can think of many examples.

Lies and deception are indeed an elemental strategy of warfare:

2 Chronicles 18:

19 And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab king of Israel to go up,

that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner,

and another spoke in that manner. 

20 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said,

‘I will persuade him.’ The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ 

21 So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’

And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.’

***************************************************************

See if you can catch what David does here!

1 Samuel 27:

8 And David and his men went up and raided the Geshurites, the Girzites,

and the Amalekites. For those nations were the inhabitants of the land

from of old, as you go to Shur, even as far as the land of Egypt. 

9 Whenever David attacked the land, he left neither man nor woman alive,

but took away the sheep, the oxen, the donkeys, the camels, and the apparel,

and returned and came to Achish. 

10 Then Achish would say, “Where have you made a raid today?”

And David would say, “Against the southern area of Judah, or against

the southern area of the Jerahmeelites, or against the southern area of the Kenites.” 

11 David would save neither man nor woman alive, to bring news to Gath, saying,

“Lest they should inform on us, saying, ‘Thus David did.’ ” And thus was his behavior

all the time he dwelt in the country of the Philistines. 

12 So Achish believed David, saying, “He has made his people Israel utterly abhor him;

therefore he will be my servant forever.”

[farouk]

13 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

We are being conformed to the image of Lord Jesus, in whom there is no deception.  Christians should not practice that which is antithetical to Christ. 

Hi @BornAgain490 Reminds me of Psalm 51.6: "Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom."