Differences between Rapture and 2nd Coming

[Retrobyter]

17 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Incorrect. 2 Cor. 5:1ff. says nothing about the resurrection. Rather, he describes there the form the soul is to be given in heaven after its death but BEFORE its resurrection.

If you can't see the context of 2 Cor.51ff., then you are are being blinded by your own presumption once again.

2 Cor. 5:6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. ... 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Not so, brother! Read it again:

2 Corinthians 5:1=11 (KJV)

1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is FROM heaven (Greek: ἐξ οὐρανοῦ = ex ouraniou = "out of-[the]-sky"): 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing [is] God, who also hath given unto us the earnest (down payment) of the Spirit. 6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ (the Messiah); that every one may RECEIVE the things [done] IN [HIS] BODY, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Don't make the mistake (as many have) of thinking that the "judgment seat of the Messiah" is in Heaven! It will be UPON THIS EARTH when He returns! The prophecy about Him AT HIS CONCEPTION was ...

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

And, this is a restatement of the Davidic Covenant found in 2 Samuel 7 and 1 Chronicles 17. This is what it means for Him to be the MESSIAH (OR CHRIST) OF GOD!  And, the job of a king in Israel was to be the "SUPREME COURT JUDGE!" This can be seen in both the lives of David and Shlomoh ("Solomon").

He will be judging THROUGHOUT the Millennium!

[Retrobyter]

On 11/14/2024 at 5:58 AM, Diaste said:

You did not just do that. You did not just go full literal when you know it's a metaphor for ruling. 

Shalom, @Diaste.

No, I do NOT accept that it is a "metaphor for ruling!" He will INDEED receive His father David's throne! How do I know this? Because DAVID will be RESURRECTED when the Messiah returns, and He will KNOW how His own throne looked, even if He has to have one rebuilt! Furthermore, He MAY even know where the original throne was put before Jerusalem was destroyed! 

Yeeshuwa` is NOT going to rule from anywhere else other than from His throne in Jerusalem!

The sooner you realize this, the easier the Scriptures will become to understand.

[Retrobyter]

On 11/14/2024 at 6:05 AM, Diaste said:

This is a story you made up that I reject. This is not borne out in the text. 

Jesus goes on to render judgement based on what they did to individuals by an individual. Nations don't visit the prisoners, the sick, the widows, people do, individuals do. 

The reference to nations is simply saying 'all people that are not Israel'.  

Shalom, @Diaste.

Actually, this is NOT an isolated incident. Psalm 2:1-12 is about dealing with the kings and leaders of nations who are in control of the individuals within their nations.

Psalm 2:1-12 (KJV)

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, [saying],

3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us!"

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall LAUGH: the Lord shall have them IN DERISION. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion! 7 I will declare the decree:

"'the LORD hath said unto me,

"'"Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel." '

10 "Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth! 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little! Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in him!"

So, there is a precedent for this interpretation. Also, the word chosen is not a "people (laos)," - a group of individuals -but an "ethnicity (ethnos)!" It's not about how INDIVIDUALS treated God's people, but how the NATION as a whole treated the Jews! And, it is the NATIONS who are divided as sheep and goats, not individuals!

Let's look at just the first two verses:

Matthew 25:31-32 (KJV)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:

In the Greek, we find ...

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 25:31-32 (Scrivener's TR)

31 Ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐν τῇ δόξῃ αὐτοῦ, καὶ πάντες οἱ ἅγιοι ἄγγελοι μετ’ αὐτοῦ, τότε καθίσει ἐπὶ θρόνου δόξης αὐτοῦ, 32 καὶ συναχθήσεται ἔμπροσθεν αὐτοῦ πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, καὶ ἀφοριεῖ αὐτοὺς ἀπ’ ἀλλήλων, ὥσπερ ὁ ποιμὴν ἀφορίζει τὰ πρόβατα ἀπὸ τῶν ἐρίφων

BlueLetterBible breaks it down for us:

TEXTUS RECEPTUS

25:31   Ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐν τῇ δόξῃ αὐτοῦ καὶ πάντες οἱ ἅγιοι ἄγγελοι μετ᾽αὐτοῦ τότε καθίσει ἐπὶ θρόνου δόξης αὐτοῦ·

When

g3752

Ὅταν ὅταν hotan

CONJ (conjunction)

the

g3588

ὁ ὁ ho

T-NSM (Definite article - nominative, singular, masculine)

Son

g5207

υἱὸς υἱός huios

N-NSM (Noun - nominative, singular, masculine)

of man

PHRASE

g444

ἀνθρώπου ἄνθρωπος anthrōpos

N-GSM (Noun - genitive, singular, masculine)

shall come

PHRASE

g2064

ἔλθῃ ἔρχομαι erchomai

V-2AAS-3S (Verb - 2nd aorist, active, subjunctive - 3rd person, singular)

in

g1722

ἐν ἐν en

PREP (Preposition)

his

g846

αὐτοῦ αὐτός autos

P-GSM (Personal pronoun - genitive, singular, masculine)

glory,

g1391

δόξῃ δόξα doxa

N-DSF (Noun - dative, singular, feminine)

and

g2532

καὶ καί kai

CONJ (Conjunction)

all

g3956

πάντες πᾶς pas

A-NPM (Adjective - nominative, plural, masculine)

the

g3588

οἱ ὁ ho

T-NPM (Definite article - nominative, plural, masculine)

holy

g40

ἅγιοι ἅγιος hagios

A-NPM (Adjective - nominative, plural, masculine)

angels

g32

ἄγγελοι ἄγγελος angelos

N-NPM (Noun - nominative, plural, masculine)

with

g3326

μετ μετά meta

PREP (Preposition)

him,

g846

αὐτοῦ αὐτός autos

P-GSM (Personal pronoun - genitive, singular, masculine)

then

g5119

τότε τότε tote

ADV (adverb)

shall he sit

PHRASE

g2523

καθίσει καθίζω kathizō

V-FAI-3S (Verb - future, active, indicative - 3rd person, singular)

upon

g1909

ἐπὶ ἐπί epi

PREP (Preposition)

the throne

PHRASE

g2362

θρόνου θρόνος thronos

N-GSM (Noun - genitive, singular, masculine)

of his

PHRASE

g846

αὐτοῦ αὐτός autos

P-GSM (Personal pronoun - genitive, singular, masculine)

glory:

g1391

δόξης δόξα doxa

N-GSF (Noun - genitive, singular, feminine)

MORPHOLOGICAL GNT

25:31   ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐν τῇ δόξῃ αὐτοῦ καὶ πάντες οἱ ἄγγελοι μετ᾽ αὐτοῦτότε καθίσει ἐπὶ θρόνου δόξης αὐτοῦ

TEXTUS RECEPTUS

25:32   καὶ συναχθήσεται ἔμπροσθεν αὐτοῦ πάντα τὰ ἔθνη καὶ ἀφοριεῖ αὐτοὺς ἀπ᾽ ἀλλήλωνὥσπερ ὁ ποιμὴν ἀφορίζει τὰ πρόβατα ἀπὸ τῶν ἐρίφων

And

g2532

καὶ καί kai

CONJ (Conjunction)

before

g1715

ἔμπροσθεν ἔμπροσθεν emprosthen

PREP (Preposition)

him

g846

αὐτοῦ αὐτός autos

P-GSM (Personal pronoun - genitive, singular, masculine)

shall be gathered

PHRASE

g4863

συναχθήσεται συνάγω synagō

V-FPI-3S (Verb - future, passive, indicative - 3rd person, singular)

all

g3956

πάντα πᾶς pas

A-NPN (Adjective - nominative, plural, neuter)

nations:

g1484

ἔθνη ἔθνος ethnos

N-NPN (Noun - nominative, plural, neuter)

and

g2532

καὶ καί kai

CONJ (Conjunction)

he shall separate

PHRASE

g873

ἀφοριεῖ ἀφορίζω aphorizō

V-FAI-3S (Verb - future, active, indicative - 3rd person, singular)

them

g846

αὐτοὺς αὐτός autos

P-APM (Personal/possessive pronoun - accusative, plural, masculine)

one

g240 ↓

ἀλλήλων ἀλλήλων allēlōn

C-GPN (Reciprocal pronoun - genitive plural neuter)

from

g575

ἀπ ἀπό apo

PREP (Preposition)

another,

g240 ↑

ἀλλήλων ἀλλήλων allēlōn

C-GPN (Reciprocal pronoun - genitive, plural, neuter)

as

g5618

ὥσπερ ὥσπερ hōsper

ADV (adverb)

a

g3588

ὁ ὁ ho

T-NSM (Definite article - nominative, singular, masculine)

shepherd

g4166

ποιμὴν ποιμήν poimēn

N-NSM (Noun - nominative, singular, masculine)

divideth

g873

ἀφορίζει ἀφορίζω aphorizō

V-PAI-3S (Verb - present, active, indicative - 3rd person, singular)

[his] sheep

g4263

πρόβατα πρόβατον probaton

N-APN (Noun - accusative, plural, neuter)

from

g575

ἀπὸ ἀπό apo

PREP (Preposition)

the

g3588

τῶν ὁ ho

T-GPM (Definite article - genitive, plural, masculine)

goats:

g2056

ἐρίφων ἔριφος eriphos

N-GPM (Noun - genitive, plural, masculine)

MORPHOLOGICAL GNT

25:32   καὶ συναχθήσονται ἔμπροσθεν αὐτοῦ πάντα τὰ ἔθνη καὶ ἀφορίσει αὐτοὺς ἀπ᾽ ἀλλήλωνὥσπερ ὁ ποιμὴν ἀφορίζει τὰ πρόβατα ἀπὸ τῶν ἐρίφων

In Greek, nouns must agree in number and gender with its pronouns. Here, we have "nations" as a plural, neuter noun, and the "one from another" uses plural, neuter reciprocal pronouns. Therefore, He's not separating individuals; He is separating ETHNICITIES - "NATIONS!"

[WilliamL]

On 11/18/2024 at 3:51 AM, Retrobyter said:

That IMPLIES...

And I'm implying that you are implying/speculating something not in the text, nor meant by the text. Angels don't imply.

On 11/18/2024 at 3:51 AM, Retrobyter said:

What's ironic is that, with the correct definitions of these words, what you said is not wrong! "The soul (the air-breathing creature) IS the tabernacle (tent) of man's spirit (breath)!" But, this is only true while the person is alive. When a person gives up his breath, that is, he "expires," then he is no longer an "air-breathing creature." He is no longer a "soul!" He's just a dead body that begins to decay.

Then all that Jesus and Paul taught about pre-resurrected people going to heaven after death is just a bunch of bunk? I think not!

Paul summed up his 2 Cor. 5:1ff. teaching with these words:

2 Cor. 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Philippians 1:23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

[Diaste]

On 11/18/2024 at 11:06 PM, Retrobyter said:

Actually, this is NOT an isolated incident. Psalm 2:1-12 is about dealing with the kings and leaders of nations who are in control of the individuals within their nations.

It has to be in isolation. This is unprecedented. No such context in judgment has occurred before as this is the one and only time, "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him,"

It's a false premise to posit kings and such are in control of the individuals. We all have a personal choice and kings do not control personal choices; even God our Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit do not control our personal choices. People can and do accept and reject even the Most High God and His laws and commands.

People are swayed by fierce political rhetoric which instills fear for their lives, and they make a choice. You're mistaking a deeply held sense of preservation bolstered by chilling speeches about dire calamity for some magical, robotic like control. That's not how it is. 

That's what this judgment in Matt 25 boils down to; personal choice to either show love to others, or not.  

That's my last word on that. 

[Diaste]

On 11/18/2024 at 7:48 PM, Retrobyter said:

No, I do NOT accept that it is a "metaphor for ruling!" He will INDEED receive His father David's throne! How do I know this? Because DAVID will be RESURRECTED when the Messiah returns, and He will KNOW how His own throne looked, even if He has to have one rebuilt! Furthermore, He MAY even know where the original throne was put before Jerusalem was destroyed! 

Yeeshuwa` is NOT going to rule from anywhere else other than from His throne in Jerusalem!

The sooner you realize this, the easier the Scriptures will become to understand.

And you did it again. You mocked baselessly about the 1000 years sitting on the throne saying something like, "hope it's a comfortable throne" when 1000 years as supreme leader with a throne 'sitting on the throne', is a metaphor for authority and duration of the King's power. And now you're trying to say Jesus is literally going to sit on a throne for 1000 years, 24/7/365.

You missed it, purposely, no doubt.

Ergo, I'm out.

Good day.

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, WilliamL said:

And I'm implying that you are implying/speculating something not in the text, nor meant by the text. Angels don't imply.

Shalom, @WilliamL.

It's in the text. One can choose to see it or ignore it, but it's there. And all that an "aggelos" (transliterated as "angel") means is "a MESSENGER!" That's what the word MEANS! Some "aggeloi" - "messengers" - are supernatural, but many, like the prophets of God, are HUMAN! Do HUMANS "imply?" One could bet on it as a sure thing! (Not that one should waste one's money on betting.)

16 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Then all that Jesus and Paul taught about pre-resurrected people going to heaven after death is just a bunch of bunk? I think not!

Paul summed up his 2 Cor. 5:1ff. teaching with these words:

2 Cor. 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Philippians 1:23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

Neither Yeeshuwa` nor Paul taught about "pre-resurrected people going to heaven after death." That is a PHILOSOPHY that was introduced later in history, especially in the formation of formal theology in the 300s A.D. particularly at the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D., but was embellished in the 13th and 14th Centuries in the "Dark Ages" just prior to the Englightenment Period. This was made famous in the paintings and artwork of ...

Hieronymus Bosch's "The Garden of Earthly Delights," 

Michelangelo's "The Last Judgment," 

Jan van Eyck's "The Ghent Altarpiece," 

Luca Signorelli's "The Last Judgment," and

Fra Angelico's "The Last Judgment."

For a primarily illiterate people, these artworks illustrated the doctrines being taught by the Trinitarians for people who could not read the Scriptures for themselves.

As a philosophy, it greatly influences how one reads the Scriptures, but if one is CAREFUL, one will understand that Yeeshuwa` and Paul NEVER taught this philosophy!

For instance, in John 14:1-3, Yeeshuwa` said,

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also."

One should be careful to note that He NEVER SAID that He was "taking us to His Father's house!" Yet, every Trinitarian will ASSUME that is what He "meant to say!" Thus, it is an ASSUMPTION that He is taking us there after He returns, and this passage is used to SUPPORT a pretribulational rapture of the church!

For me, I read that He just told us what He would be doing while away, but that He would be coming back to retrieve us and gather us to Himself, taking us - NOT to "Heaven" - but to ISRAEL where He will fight against His enemies and rescue His people, who will become subjects in His new, literal, physical Kingdom upon the earth, as promised in the prophecies of the Tanakh (the Old Testament)!

The same man who recorded His words here, later tells us in Revelation 21:1-2 that His Father's House, the New Jerusalem, the "Tent of God," comes HERE to THIS EARTH (after the Fire of Revelation 20 and the re-forming of the New Earth in Revelation 21:1):

Revelation 20:7-21:5 (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (out of the sky), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (out of the throne) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle (Greek: skeenee = "Bedouin tent") of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

5 And he that sat upon the throne said,

"Behold, I make all things new."

And he said unto me,

"Write: for these words are true and faithful."

This is reminiscent of two other passages:

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation!"

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth (the FIRST heavens and earth) standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished (Noach's Flood): 7 But the (SECOND) heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord WILL COME as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY WITH A GREAT NOISE, AND THE ELEMENTS SHALL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT, THE EARTH ALSO AND THE WORKS THAT ARE THEREIN SHALL BE BURNED UP. 11 [Seeing] then [that] ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE DISSOLVED, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein THE HEAVENS BEING ON FIRE SHALL BE DISSOLVED, AND THE ELEMENTS SHALL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for NEW HEAVENS AND A NEW EARTH (a THIRD heavens and the earth), wherein dwelleth righteousness.

This passage harmonizes with Revelation 20 and 21, and the other passage of Scripture is about Abraham in Hebrews 11:

Hebrews 11:8-10 (KJV)

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as [in] a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles (Greek: skeenais, the plural of skeenee in the ablative case, meaning "(in) Bedouin tents") with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God.

Genesis 15:2 is the first mention of the title "'Adonay" which means "a-foundation-Layer" or the "One who lays the foundation" of a city or a town.

And, this foreshadows what we read later in Revelation 21 about "foundations" (same Greek word)!

One can also read,

'Church historian Diarmaid MacCulloch has observed that "Christianity in its first five centuries was in many respects a dialogue between Judaism and Graeco-Roman philosophy".[MacCulloch 2010, p. 8.] There are similarities between early Christianity and ancient philosophy. Biblical scholar Udo Schnelle writes, "philosophy is a salutary means for living well and dying well ... The followers of Jesus of Nazareth practiced a comparable lifestyle, treated comparable subjects, and produced comparable literature."[Schnelle 2020, p. 45.]'

I would recommend the Appendix on "Christoplatonism" in Randy Alcorn's book Heaven. The Greek influence in the 200s and 300s was HUGE! It even changed the definitions of words we use in church settings, like "soul," and "spirit," and "incarnation," and "heaven" and even the title "Christ," which doesn't seem to carry the same meaning as its Hebrew counterpart "Messiah."

The understanding of 2 Corinthians 5:8 is understood by how one defines these words!

Trinitarians see this verse as "when one dies, he (the 'soul' or the 'spirit') leaves the body to go be with God in Heaven." But, non-trinitarians see this verse as "when one dies, he is unconscious of the activities going on around him until the Resurrection, in which the person will almost immediately be "with Christ" at His Coming! For the one who has died, the transition is INSTANTANEOUS! So, for him or her, no time has passed since he or she "fell asleep" in Christ, and was "awakened" in the Resurrection.

When we read of Adam's creation, we see this:

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

It was not "the body of the man was formed of the dust of the ground"; it was "the MAN was formed of the dust of the ground!" And, the word "soul" means "one that breathes" because it is the Hebrew word "nefesh" which comes from "naafash" meaning "to breathe!"

Yeeshuwa` was made the same way!

John 1:14 (KJV)

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

It doesn't say "the body of the Word was made flesh" nor does it say "the Word was PUT INTO A BODY OF flesh" (which is what "incarnation" means). It says "the Word was MADE FLESH!"

Gabriel told Mary,

Luke 1:35 (KJV)

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, 

"The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

GOD said in the second Psalm,

Psalm 2:6-9 (KJV)

6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree:

"'the LORD hath said unto me,

"'"Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."'"

One last thing I'll mention: When Adam was cursed, it was not his body that was put in the ground; it was HIM!

Genesis 3:17-19 (KJV)

17 And unto Adam he said,

"Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, 'Thou shalt not eat of it': cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return."

And, that is what is recorded at his death:

Genesis 5:1-5 (KJV)

1 This [is] the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. 3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: 4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters: 5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Not "his body died" but "HE died!" This is why the Resurrection of the justified is so important!

[Retrobyter]

23 hours ago, Diaste said:

It has to be in isolation. This is unprecedented. No such context in judgment has occurred before as this is the one and only time, "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him,"

Shalom, @Diaste.

[I lost my previous post to answer this post of yours through the striking of one key out of order!

I've had to rebuild that post; sorry about the delay.]

No, when we're talking about God reigning through His Messiah - His Anointed one to be king, we have "prequels" to this event through the reigns of David and Solomon.

 

23 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's a false premise to posit kings and such are in control of the individuals. We all have a personal choice and kings do not control personal choices; even God our Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit do not control our personal choices. People can and do accept and reject even the Most High God and His laws and commands.

People are swayed by fierce political rhetoric which instills fear for their lives, and they make a choice. You're mistaking a deeply held sense of preservation bolstered by chilling speeches about dire calamity for some magical, robotic like control. That's not how it is. 

Millions of people today would disagree with you. Ever hear of Kim Jong Un in North Korea? Ever hear of Xi Jinping, the General Secretary of the CCP in China? How about Vladimir Putin in Russia? These men and those like them have put FEAR in the hearts of their subjects with a control that cannot be underestimated! How about the kings and queens of the various countries in Europe? Whether through the fear they instill because of their political positions as leaders of their separate countries or because of their subjects' love and respect, these leaders ARE "in control of the individuals" in their countries! Who, in such countries, makes the decisions to go to war or to sue for peace? The LEADERS have the clout to make such decisions! Therefore, the LEADERS will be held responsible for their nations' choices!

23 hours ago, Diaste said:

That's what this judgment in Matt 25 boils down to; personal choice to either show love to others, or not.  

That's my last word on that. 

I believe GOD'S last word is the one we should regard as final. It would be wise for us ALL to go back and read the prophecies of the Tanakh (the OT) and find what GOD has to say on the matter! It's there! READ IT! Just a sample:

Zechariah 14:1-21 (KJV)

1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the light shall not be clear, [nor] dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, [that] at evening time it shall be light. 8 And it shall be in that day, [that] living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea (the Dead Sea), and half of them toward the hinder sea (the Mediterranean Sea): in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and [from] the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. 11 And [men] shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. 14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. 15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

16 And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles (Sukkot). 17 And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Isaiah 2:1-22 (KJV)

1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say,

"Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."

4 And HE SHALL JUDGE AMONG THE NATIONS, AND SHALL REBUKE MANY PEOPLE: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD. 6 Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and [are] soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers. 7 Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither [is there any] end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither [is there any] end of their chariots: 8 Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made: 9 And the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself: therefore forgive them not. 10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty. 11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. 12 For the day of the LORD of hosts [shall be] upon every [one that is] proud and lofty, and upon every [one that is] lifted up; and he shall be brought low: 13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, [that are] high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, 14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills [that are] lifted up, 15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall, 16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures. 17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. 18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish. 19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. 20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made [each one] for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; 21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. 22 Cease ye from man, whose breath [is] in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?

[Diaste]

16 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Millions of people today would disagree with you. Ever hear of Kim Jong Un in North Korea? Ever hear of Xi Jinping, the General Secretary of the CCP in China? How about Vladimir Putin in Russia? These men and those like them have put FEAR in the hearts of their subjects with a control that cannot be underestimated! How about the kings and queens of the various countries in Europe? Whether through the fear they instill because of their political positions as leaders of their separate countries or because of their subjects' love and respect, these leaders ARE "in control of the individuals" in their countries! Who, in such countries, makes the decisions to go to war or to sue for peace? The LEADERS have the clout to make such decisions! Therefore, the LEADERS will be held responsible for their nations' choices!

lol. earthly kings rule at the pleasure of the people. So many, many revolutions of the people against kings, emperors and dictators prove this nothing more than wishes and hope. And scripture disagrees via Ezekiel 18. I agree with the Word of the Lord in Ezekiel 18.

 

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

lol. earthly kings rule at the pleasure of the people. So many, many revolutions of the people against kings, emperors and dictators prove this nothing more than wishes and hope. And scripture disagrees via Ezekiel 18. I agree with the Word of the Lord in Ezekiel 18.

Shalom, @Diaste.

I'm in COMPLETE agreement with Ezekiel 18! How do you think it is otherwise? And, no, earthly kings rule at their OWN pleasure! If the earthly king has taken to himself power to subject the people over which he rules, then he has subjugated the people and the king's word will be ignored at the peril of the one who ignored it! His life will be FORFEIT!

I will say thank you for reminding me that "the SOUL that sinneth it shall die!" Based on the modern definition of "soul," how is it possible for the "soul" to die (other than the Second Death, of course)? In Ezekiel 18, the deaths there are NORMAL deaths of people who have committed crimes worthy of death!

Edited November 24, 2024 by Retrobyter
to fix sentence agreement