The Church isn't in Revelation after Ch 4.

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, abcdef said:

Dan 11, Context. Can we just suddenly say that one verse is BC and the next verse is 2000 AD, then return to BC in v 40 (chariots)?

Again, which "time of the end" is it? The end of Jerusalem time? The end of Trib time? The end of the age Time? Etc.

The best fit is the end of Antiochus and the Greek rule time. That would fit the context.

I do believe I answered that however, from Dan 11:

 

 He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed...

 because he will magnify himself above them all...

40At the time of the end..

The context shifts to wrath at the time of the end. The time of the end associated with God's wrath has not happened.

9 hours ago, abcdef said:

Why do you think that Antiochus didn't fulfilled this? 

He did fulfill it in part. He fulfilled it well before Jesus gave the prophecy of the future A of D. The A of D of which Jesus prophesied is associated with the flight from Judea, but also with the most terrible crisis of all history and never to happen again. Neither AE IV nor Titus was associated with either. 

9 hours ago, abcdef said:

This could be said about almost every ruler who ruled over the children of Israel. I can think of people doing the same thing today. It's not really that unusual and Antiochus would certainly be an example. (Vatican)

AE IV is a template. The idea of 'ruled over the children of Israel' as interpretive criteria in prophecy is rejected by me. 

9 hours ago, abcdef said:

 

Titus did that.

 

Caesar, Rome, and the Vatican.

The 42 months is symbolic and not literal. The 42 months is centuries and centuries. 

If you can find a written history that says Titus placed the A of D in the Temple, which at that point was already destroyed, and then exalted himself over the God of heaven and every other God, I would like to read it. 

This fixation on Rome is the distraction. 

It is not centuries. If the 42 months is centuries, then the time of the end after the A of D tell us the beast who died and was healed from the deadly head wound, and has the awe of the world in the form of worship of himself and an image, lasts for centuries.

Is that written in any secular history? Seem like quite the important timespan what with the whole world under one leader, worshiping him as a god, for a span of centuries. 

 

9 hours ago, abcdef said:

 

Thee abomination of Dan 11 is Antiochus.

The abomination of Dan 9:25-27 is Titus. This is shown by the timeline anchor of the 70 weeks. Jesus comes after the 69th week, at the beginning of the 70th week.

This puts the AoD that Jesus referred to as being related to the time when He bean His ministry. The Abomination that Jesus talked about happened 40 years later when Titus leveled the temple and Jerusalem.

This isn't consistent. You said 42 months is centuries. We see no such evidence.

9 hours ago, abcdef said:

 

Antichrist Antiochus has been fulfilled.

Antichrist Titus has been fulfilled.

The little horn that rises when the beast nation is divided is fulfilled, he has been here for centuries attacking the children of Israel, the Vatican.

No. There are many details of the acts of the beast that have to fulfilled in the reign of the beast that we do not see, have not yet seen. 

9 hours ago, abcdef said:

 

Titus did that.

Did Antiochus exalt himself above every god?

Did Nebuchadnezzar exalt himself above every god, with a golden statue?

Did the Caesars exalt themselves above every god?

Do men exalt themselves above every god when they lie, steal, betray, and kill?

Does the Caesar/Bishop of Rome exalt himself above God when he forgives sins, is called "Holy Father", says that he is the head of the church, orders people, Jews, to be killed?

Out of context. It's one man that not only exalts himself above every god and claims to be god, but also forces everyone to make an image to him, and get a mark that represents his name or the number of his name or no one can buy or sell. And that mark is forced on everyone from powerful to weak and rich to poor. 

If the 42 months is centuries, "The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months" and the beasts forces the mark that is his name or number on everyone for all those centuries, where is the written history and the empirical evidence?

9 hours ago, abcdef said:

The Antichrist of Dan 9 has been over the children of Israel since 63 BC.

He is just not one person. He is the leader/god of the Roman nation over centuries.

The pretrib teaching has hidden him very well.

-----

 

[The Light]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

I do believe I answered that however, from Dan 11:

 

 He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed...

 because he will magnify himself above them all...

40At the time of the end..

The context shifts to wrath at the time of the end. The time of the end associated with God's wrath has not happened.

 

 

This is incorrect. Wrath is not mentioned.

At the end of Rev 11 we see he comes to his end before the great tribulation, and tribulation is before wrath.

Rev 11

45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Rev 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, The Light said:

This is incorrect. Wrath is not mentioned.

Dan 11:

"36Then the king will do as he pleases and will exalt and magnify himself above every god, and he will speak monstrous things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed,"

"Till the time of wrath" The word used here denotes intense anger and indignation associated with divine judgment. Clearly wrath is not only mentioned but it is the very barrier thwarting the success of this king. It's the end of his time in the form of the outpouring of divine retribution in anger and indignation. 

 

 

19 hours ago, The Light said:

At the end of Rev 11 we see he comes to his end before the great tribulation, and tribulation is before wrath.

I'm going to assume Rev 11 and Rev 12 are typos...it happens. Both of those passages are of course from Daniel 11 and 12, but you knew that. 

19 hours ago, The Light said:

Rev 11

45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

 

'Yet shall he come' is an unusual verb in my mind. The Hebrew conveys a journey of deep spiritual significance, not an event. It could be written:

"He will pitch his royal tents between the sea and the beautiful holy mountain, but he will journey to his end, with no one to help him"

In any case this isn't a timeline of pitching tents and then immediate destruction. It's more like once he pitches tents in that location, he begins the journey to his end at some point. 

So it's really a loose overview mentioning the beginning of the journey[pitching the tents in that location] and the destination of his ultimate end. Lots of stuff going on during this sojourn.

 

19 hours ago, The Light said:

Rev 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

You all have to be more circumspect with declaring the timelines as inviolate.

What we see in Dan 12:1-2 is another overview, not an instant succession. The idea of time here, 'eth', is more like a season or appointed time. Of course it's a specific time or season, but it's not an appointment book where Micheal stand up at 11:15 am, then at 11:20 am, the time of trouble, then at 11:25 am, the people are delivered.

As the Hebrew usage says:

"The Hebrew word "eth" primarily denotes a specific time or season. It is used to indicate an appointed time or a particular period in which events occur. This term can refer to both literal and figurative times, encompassing moments of joy, sorrow, work, rest, and divine appointments."

Of course the events have a specific time or season, and they do occur in order as written, but none of us have any clue about the specific time nor the duration, nor the occurrence in relation to the many other events that occur between each of the main events listed. 

This isn't a rapid occurrence of events like ticking seconds on a clock. We are being told, "in that season or timeframe or on this continuum" these major events will occur. 

So the time of trouble that begins is the same GT in the Olivet discourse. That takes time to run it's course. So the deliverance isn't going to happen immediately upon the opening act of Michael standing up. Neither then would the deliverance, nor would verse 2 occur simultaneously or necessarily in conjunction.

Dan 12 cannot countermand Revelation. Fashioning a timeline here in Daniel solely based on Daniel doesn't tend toward understanding.

 

[The Light]

On 12/30/2024 at 5:58 AM, Diaste said:

Dan 11:

"36Then the king will do as he pleases and will exalt and magnify himself above every god, and he will speak monstrous things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed,"

"Till the time of wrath" The word used here denotes intense anger and indignation associated with divine judgment. Clearly wrath is not only mentioned but it is the very barrier thwarting the success of this king. It's the end of his time in the form of the outpouring of divine retribution in anger and indignation. 

As I said. The great tribulation occurs before the wrath of God. 

We see that this Antichrist comes to his end before the tribulation which means that He is dead before the wrath of God begins.

Daniel 11

45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Daniel 12

 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

On 12/30/2024 at 5:58 AM, Diaste said:

 

Of course the events have a specific time or season, and they do occur in order as written, but none of us have any clue about the specific time nor the duration, nor the occurrence in relation to the many other events that occur between each of the main events listed. 

The duration is time, times and half a time.

On 12/30/2024 at 5:58 AM, Diaste said:

 

So the time of trouble that begins is the same GT in the Olivet discourse.

Yes, it is. The great tribulation is occurring when there is war in heaven as we can see in Daniel 12. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, Jesus returns for a harvest at the 6th seal. Daniels people are delivered at rapture at the 6th seal. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

The one year, 7th seal, wrath of God.........Day of the Lord.........contains the trumpets and vials of wrath.

On 12/30/2024 at 5:58 AM, Diaste said:

 

That takes time to run it's course. So the deliverance isn't going to happen immediately upon the opening act of Michael standing up. Neither then would the deliverance, nor would verse 2 occur simultaneously or necessarily in conjunction.

Exactly correct. Michael stands up and there is war in heaven. This occurs at the same time as the great tribulation. At the end of tribulation, Jesus returns for the second harvest which are the people of Daniel. 

The fallen angels are cast to the earth at the 6th seal and go through the wrath of God.

On 12/30/2024 at 5:58 AM, Diaste said:

Dan 12 cannot countermand Revelation. Fashioning a timeline here in Daniel solely based on Daniel doesn't tend toward understanding.

 

Daniel 12 agrees exactly with Revelation. There is no mystery if you understand that Jesus returns for a harvest at the 6th seal just exactly as the Word says. This harvest is seen here.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, The Light said:

As I said. The great tribulation occurs before the wrath of God. 

I replied in response to you saying wrath wasn't mentioned. 

16 hours ago, The Light said:

We see that this Antichrist comes to his end before the tribulation which means that He is dead before the wrath of God begins.

Nope. The beast is taken after Jesus arrival, with the false prophet. The beast must continue 42 months, as it is written. Therefore from the healing of the deadly head wound the beast has 3.5 years. At the time the beast is taken Jesus has arrived per Rev 19. The beast and the false prophet are captured at the final battle when all the armies of the earth are assembled to fight against the rider on the white horse, Jesus, the King of kings.

That cannot be placed at the midpoint before GT even begins. What's more, GT is the pressure of the mark and forced worship, the beast is directly responsible for the mark an the forced worship, the beast and his hate driven ego are great tribulation. He can hardly be thrown into the lake of fire even before he fulfills his terrible purpose.

16 hours ago, The Light said:

Daniel 11

45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

You assume this is the order with no other events occurring, and no time span, between the setting up of his camp and his end. 

There had to be some evidence for that conclusion. All relevant scripture point to a duration of time between his setting up in the Holy Land and his demise.

16 hours ago, The Light said:

Daniel 12

 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The duration is time, times and half a time.

Yes, it is. The great tribulation is occurring when there is war in heaven as we can see in Daniel 12. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, Jesus returns for a harvest at the 6th seal. Daniels people are delivered at rapture at the 6th seal. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

Technically, the 6th seal is the herald of Jesus arrival and the dread of the people of earth in the face of impending wrath. The gathering isn't at the 6th seal, it's at the last trump. That last trump is the 7th trump.

16 hours ago, The Light said:

The one year, 7th seal, wrath of God.........Day of the Lord.........contains the trumpets and vials of wrath.

Only vials are said to be God's wrath, not the trumps. 

16 hours ago, The Light said:

Exactly correct. Michael stands up and there is war in heaven. This occurs at the same time as the great tribulation. At the end of tribulation, Jesus returns for the second harvest which are the people of Daniel. 

There is no 'second harvest'. We only see the people that came out of GT and faced the beast as translated to heaven about the throne and given power and authority. Nowhere in scripture do we see a vast pretrib group in heaven.

A vast group of tribulation saints are pictured, the overcomers of the mark and forced worship are pictured in heaven. 

This is a stark contrast to no pretrib group pictured in heaven, anywhere, ever, in all holy writ. 

16 hours ago, The Light said:

The fallen angels are cast to the earth at the 6th seal and go through the wrath of God.

Daniel 12 agrees exactly with Revelation. There is no mystery if you understand that Jesus returns for a harvest at the 6th seal just exactly as the Word says. This harvest is seen here.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Here we have the fact of the harvest in stunning imagery. What we lack in this cited passage is the timing in relation to other important events. 

Matt 24 clears that up in this order: A of D, GT, The Signs of His return, the gathering of the elect.

Paul also gives us the correct timing, 'at the last trump'. That last trump is the 7th trump of Revelation.

That would mean the last trump sounds here: "And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call".

This also means the trumps are not wrath and that the timing of the gathering is settled, and it's not pretrib.

[Keras]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Paul also gives us the correct timing, 'at the last trump'. That last trump is the 7th trump of Revelation.

It is error to conflate the 7th Trumpet of Revelation 11:15-19, which describes happenings in heaven, with the glorious Return.  Rev 19:11-21    They simply do not match.

As for thinking the Church goes to live in heaven during the 3 1/2 year period of world Satanic control, that belief is wrong and proved wrong by how the 'beast' pursues Christian believers. Rev 12:17    That verse blows away the rapture fable, who fondly imagine the Church is gone and those who face persecution are new converts.   Revelation 13 makes it clear; the whole world will follow after the beast. 

 

[The Light]

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

I replied in response to you saying wrath wasn't mentioned. 

The wrath of God.........the one year Day of the Lord was not mentioned.

The wrath mentioned in your translation is not the wrath of God.

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

Nope. The beast is taken after Jesus arrival, with the false prophet. The beast must continue 42 months, as it is written.

There are two beasts. The second beast, the beast of the earth has TWO HORNS.

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

Therefore from the healing of the deadly head wound the beast has 3.5 years.

The deadly wound that is healed is the beast was (before John), is not in Johns time and will come again. 

This is the little horn, the beast of the sea.

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

At the time the beast is taken Jesus has arrived per Rev 19. The beast and the false prophet are captured at the final battle when all the armies of the earth are assembled to fight against the rider on the white horse, Jesus, the King of kings.

See above.

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

That cannot be placed at the midpoint before GT even begins. What's more, GT is the pressure of the mark and forced worship, the beast is directly responsible for the mark an the forced worship, the beast and his hate driven ego are great tribulation. He can hardly be thrown into the lake of fire even before he fulfills his terrible purpose.

There are two beasts and the second beast has TWO HORNS.

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

You assume this is the order with no other events occurring, and no time span, between the setting up of his camp and his end. 

I don't care about the time span between when he sets up his camp and his end, that is not relevant. What is relevant is the time of his end occurs before the great tribulation.

Daniel 12

And at that time (the time of his end) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

There had to be some evidence for that conclusion. All relevant scripture point to a duration of time between his setting up in the Holy Land and his demise.

Don't care about that time. The time that matters is he comes to his end BEFORE the great tribulation as we can see in Daniel 12

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

Technically, the 6th seal is the herald of Jesus arrival and the dread of the people of earth in the face of impending wrath. The gathering isn't at the 6th seal, it's at the last trump. That last trump is the 7th trump.

The Word of God says that the gathering occurs immediately after the tribulation of those days............at the 6th seal. This is cut and dried........FACT.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

Only vials are said to be God's wrath, not the trumps. 

Your statement is incorrect. Both trumpets and vials occur in the 7th seal, Day of the Lord, wrath of God.

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

There is no 'second harvest'. We only see the people that came out of GT and faced the beast as translated to heaven about the throne and given power and authority. Nowhere in scripture do we see a vast pretrib group in heaven.

Revelation 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

A vast group of tribulation saints are pictured, the overcomers of the mark and forced worship are pictured in heaven. 

Those that get victory over the beast that are seen in heaven sing the song of Moses. They are Jews.

Revelation 15

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

This is a stark contrast to no pretrib group pictured in heaven, anywhere, ever, in all holy writ. 

Revelation 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

Here we have the fact of the harvest in stunning imagery. What we lack in this cited passage is the timing in relation to other important events. 

We lack nothing. The harvest occurs at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

Matt 24 clears that up in this order: A of D, GT, The Signs of His return, the gathering of the elect.

One of these days you will understand that Jesus returns at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation. He comes for the harvest which will be mostly Jews, as there are 144000 first fruits of this harvest and those harvested are singing the song of Moses...........again, they are Jews. The Church is already in heaven. You don't get precise, chiseled in granite, timing of this because he comes when you think not. There is no perfect roadmap laid for this, or he would be unable to come when you think not.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

Paul also gives us the correct timing, 'at the last trump'. That last trump is the 7th trump of Revelation.

John hadn't written Revelation when Paul wrote Corinthians. And yet Paul was perfectly clear.........at the last trump. The Feast of Trumpets occurs every year and the Last Trump is blown then. Also the Feast of Trumpets is the second harvest feast.

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

That would mean the last trump sounds here: "And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call".

Nope. You need to make occur then even though the Word of God is perfectly clear that Jesus returns at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation and gathers the elect from heaven and earth.

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

This also means the trumps are not wrath 

False conclusion. One mistake leads to another. The trumpets occur is the 7th seal. The 7th seal is the day of the Lord, the one-year day of His wrath. The vials also occur in the 7th seal, the day of the Lord.

This verse proves that Armageddon is already when the 7th trumpet sounds. Christ has set up His kingdom when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

Revelation 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

and that the timing of the gathering is settled, and it's not pretrib.

 

[abcdef]

On 12/29/2024 at 5:36 AM, Diaste said:

I do believe I answered that however, from Dan 11:

 

 He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed...

 because he will magnify himself above them all...

40At the time of the end..

 

On 12/29/2024 at 5:36 AM, Diaste said:

The context shifts to wrath at the time of the end. The time of the end associated with God's wrath has not happened.

Dan 11:40, Just because it says "the time of the end" doesn't mean the end of time.

It means the time of the end for Antiochus, in the context. 

Jesus wasn't referring to Dan 11, it was Dan 9 which takes place around the time of Jesus coming to Israel as the Prince in the 1st century. 

--

Most of the wrath of God in Rev has already happened. 

The seals/trumpets timeline is 37 AD-2025 and continues until the 7th trumpet which is about to sound when Jerusalem falls.

The "wrath" is between Jesus/God and the unbelieving flesh children of Israel. It is not centered on the planet and the gentile nations. Rome is the main persecutor of Israel which is the 6th seal 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem.

The seals are from 37 AD until the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem.  

The trumpets show the time of unbelieving Israel after the 70 AD destruction. 70 AD until the 7th trumpet.

So the wrath of God has been on the unbelieving children of Israel for 1900 years ish since  the majority of Israel rejected the Pentecost gospel covenant in 37 AD.

 

[abcdef]

On 12/29/2024 at 5:36 AM, Diaste said:

He did fulfill it in part. He fulfilled it well before Jesus gave the prophecy of the future A of D.

 

On 12/29/2024 at 5:36 AM, Diaste said:

The A of D of which Jesus prophesied is associated with the flight from Judea,

Yes, the AoD is associated with the flight from Judea, the 70 AD ish flight of the 1st century.

After Titus surrounded Jerusalem, the people of Judea were told to flee, that happened, history proves it.

-

This time there will be no fleeing into the gentile nations after Jerusalem falls.

 

On 12/29/2024 at 5:36 AM, Diaste said:

but also with the most terrible crisis of all history and never to happen again. Neither AE IV nor Titus was associated with either. 

Yes, the most  terrible time in history, never to happen again, happened to unbelieving Israel from 37 AD until 1967.

It's centered on Israel, the children of Israel, the unbelieving children of Israel, NOT THE PLANET AND THE GENTILE NATIONS OF OUR TIME.

Titus was just one Antichrist who "desolated" Jerusalem. 1-7 seals, 6th seal.

 

On 12/29/2024 at 5:36 AM, Diaste said:

AE IV is a template. The idea of 'ruled over the children of Israel' as interpretive criteria in prophecy is rejected by me. 

Well, Dan 2, 7-12, Rev, and all other prophecies are centered on who rules over the children of Israel and their ancestors.

To abandon that facet of the scriptures is to abandon the context of the passages.

 

On 12/29/2024 at 5:36 AM, Diaste said:

If you can find a written history that says Titus placed the A of D in the Temple, which at that point was already destroyed, and then exalted himself over the God of heaven and every other God, I would like to read it.

Dan 9:24-27, Shows that the desolation of Titus in 70 AD comes after Jesus appears to Israel in 30 AD.

Titus did sacrifice on the altar. The temple was burned. Then the final desolation of Jerusalem and the temple was accomplished.

I wasn't there 1900 years ago. You weren't either.

I can't say if Titus erected the image of Caesar or not. 

But I see the results. The result was the desolation of Jerusalem on a scale that has been duplicated few times in history.

I know that Israel rejected the new covenant and attacked the gospel kingdom. 

I know that God withdrew his covenant blessings and protections.

 I see that Dan 9 fits the timeline aligns with history.

So the AoD of the Dan 9 timeline has already happened and is fulfilled.

 

On 12/29/2024 at 5:36 AM, Diaste said:

This fixation on Rome is the distraction. 

"We have no king but Caesar", Jn 19:15.

"And one is", Rev17:10.

What was happening at the time of Jesus and the apostles in the 1st century? Will you abandon the context of the writings? 

The savage beast Roman Empire was killing thousands, 100's of thousands of the children of Israel. Who killed the Apostles? 

There are some who can't tell the difference between what is  fulfilled and what is not. So they are looking for past events that will not happen, because they have already happened.

 

On 12/29/2024 at 5:36 AM, Diaste said:

It is not centuries. If the 42 months is centuries, then the time of the end after the A of D tell us the beast who died and was healed from the deadly head wound, and has the awe of the world in the form of worship of himself and an image, lasts for centuries.

Yes, the beast lasts for centuries. The statue of Dan 2 lasts for centuries. The iron in the statue is continual and lasts for centuries.

The iron begins in 63 BC and lasts for centuries and centuries, 2000 years ish.

Rome is an Empire which divides and continues after it divides. History shows this to be true.

It's centered on the children of Israel and what they go through, not the planet world, the world of the children of Israel.

 

On 12/29/2024 at 5:36 AM, Diaste said:

Is that written in any secular history? Seem like quite the important timespan what with the whole world under one leader, worshiping him as a god, for a span of centuries.  

History shows that Rome was the chief persecutor of the children of Israel from 63 BC until 1967.

It's not the whole world planet, it's the whole world of the children Israel.

 

On 12/29/2024 at 5:36 AM, Diaste said:

This isn't consistent. You said 42 months is centuries. We see no such evidence.

The 42 months, 1260 days, and  3 1/2 times in the Rev are centuries.

The are symbolic of 70 AD - 1967 and are associated with the Dan 2 statue times of the gentiles.

 

On 12/29/2024 at 5:36 AM, Diaste said:

No. There are many details of the acts of the beast that have to fulfilled in the reign of the beast that we do not see, have not yet seen. 

Israel has seen them. The mark of the beast, the rule of the world, the NWO is all Rome to Israel from 63 BC until 1967.

 

On 12/29/2024 at 5:36 AM, Diaste said:

Out of context. It's one man that not only exalts himself above every god and claims to be god, but also forces everyone to make an image to him, and get a mark that represents his name or the number of his name or no one can buy or sell. And that mark is forced on everyone from powerful to weak and rich to poor. 

You are describing Israel under the slavery of Rome. It's not the planet earth world.

 

On 12/29/2024 at 5:36 AM, Diaste said:

If the 42 months is centuries, "The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months" and the beasts forces the mark that is his name or number on everyone for all those centuries, where is the written history and the empirical evidence?

History shows that the children of Israel were in slavery to Rome and under Roman authority for centuries and centuries, 2000 years.

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Why are you protecting Rome? Why are you discounting the role of Rome in the history of Israel when it plays such a great part in that history?

 

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

On 1/3/2025 at 10:06 AM, abcdef said:

Yes, the AoD is associated with the flight from Judea, the 70 AD ish flight of the 1st century.

After Titus surrounded Jerusalem, the people of Judea were told to flee, that happened, history proves it.

If you stop there, but if you keep reading...GT then follows the flight, and the return of Jesus follows GT. So the flight has to be worse than any other time in history and never repeated, and Jesus would have been back 42 months max after the A of D. 

So no, didn't happen.