What does it mean to be 'Born Again?'

[PATrobas]

@AdHoc I have to almost say as did Festus to Paul, "... thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad." though I won't....(mostly because I fear you'll quote Paul's response back to me...) anyway brother, I appreciate your effort and explanation in backing your assertions up with Scripture. I see things a bit different and am not learned enough to respond as eloquently as you do. We see several things eye to eye and others not so much. I will continue to try to be open minded in these matters and search the Scriptures to see if what you say be so. I am where I am thus far because of the HS's leading and trust He will continue to lead me on to learn more, but for now, though I see through a glass darkly, I can still see Jesus in me in my reflection so will leave it at that. I know that I once was lost and it sure felt like I was spiritually dead, and now I'm found and it feels like I'm spiritually alive because God birthed me, and it sounds like you too, so thanks for the banter. Blessings. Pat

[AdHoc]

8 minutes ago, PATrobas said:

@AdHoc I have to almost say as did Festus to Paul, "... thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad." though I won't....(mostly because I fear you'll quote Paul's response back to me...) anyway brother, I appreciate your effort and explanation in backing your assertions up with Scripture. I see things a bit different and am not learned enough to respond as eloquently as you do. We see several things eye to eye and others not so much. I will continue to try to be open minded in these matters and search the Scriptures to see if what you say be so. I am where I am thus far because of the HS's leading and trust He will continue to lead me on to learn more, but for now, though I see through a glass darkly, I can still see Jesus in me in my reflection so will leave it at that. I know that I once was lost and it sure felt like I was spiritually dead, and now I'm found and it feels like I'm spiritually alive because God birthed me, and it sounds like you too, so thanks for the banter. Blessings. Pat

What an honest appreciation spoken (written) in a true Christian spirit. I salute you.

P.S. Took me many years to come round to many things I hold now. Don't be in a rush. Stick to your guns.

[enoob57]

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

It is not on the original text but implied by verse 5.

I was under the understanding we didn't have the original texts!

[AdHoc]

5 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

I was under the understanding we didn't have the original texts!

Correct. I used inaccurate language. I should have said "original language texts" or "The Received Texts". Thanks. It keeps me honest ... an careful

[FreeGrace]

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Instead of going at it point for point, may I lay forth my understanding and you, and the reader, can judge.

Thank you for your reply.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

In my first posting to @PATrobas I said that spiritual death is unknown to the Bible.

Yet I gave verses that affirm spiritual death.  In fact, "on the day" when Adam ate the fruit, he did die.  That was the warning, and God always carries through when He warns about something.  Adam's human spirit did die, as the warning SAID.

And that is what "spiritual death" refers to;  the death of the human spirit.  btw, how do you understand the words "RE-born", born AGAIN, and RE-generation?  What do they refer to, if not the human spirit at the moment of saving faith in Christ for salvation?  What else could these various words refer to?

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Matthew 10:28 threatens the death of the soul and the body at the hand of God.

There is no threat.  It simply notes that God is able to destroy both body and soul.  Yet, there are no verses of the death of the soul.  btw, the OT has many references to the death of a soul, but the word for "soul" means "the person".  Further, there are verses that show that "soul" and "spirit" have been interchanged.  Yet, Heb 4:12 is quite clear that the soul and spirit ARE related but separate, just as the bones and marrow are related but separate.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

The threat of God's judgment does not touch the human spirit.

Since everyone is born in the state of spiritual death, that is the reason Jesus Christ came to earth and died for the sin debt of everyone.  A debt that no one could pay, so Jesus paid the debt for everyone, so that God's grace would be free to offer the free gift of eternal life to everyone.  Titus 2:11.  God's grace offers salvation to everyone.

Remember, sometimes "soul" and "spirit" are interchangeable in the Bible.  But there is a clear difference between them.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

In 1st Corinthians 5 we have a "brother" who committed sexual sins and his physical death was to remove the threat to God's holiness because he was a believer and host to God.

Why put quotes around 'brother'?  Of course he was saved.  Paul turned him over to Satan for discipline that could end in his physical death (not a simple hand slap), but the way for his sinful ways to end.  His salvation was never at risk.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Ecclesiastes 3 and 12 state that at death the human spirit returns to God who gave it.

This refers to believers, who have been born again, or their human spirit revived.  Yes, all human spirits return to God at physical death.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

And Luke 8:55 shows that at resurrection it returns to the person.

What do you make of "souls in heaven" that John SAW and wrote about in Revelation?  And Paul contrasted physical life and death in relation to being with Christ.

2 Cor 5:6,8

6 - Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.

8 - We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

iow, when we are alive, we are "at home" in the body but "away from the Lord".

otoh, when we are "away from the body" (dead) we are "at home with the Lord".

This includes both soul and spirit.  At the resurrection, Jesus brings with Him all the saints who have already died and have been in heaven and they receive their resurrection body in the air, just before those believers who are alive and remain (survive the Tribulation) are caught up together with THEM (Jesus and all dead saints) and "changed in the thinking of the eye" (1 Cor 15:52).  iow, every believer receives a resurrection body.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I repeat (from the first posting) that the spirit cannot die.

I repeat from my post to you that Adam died on the day he ate the fruit.  But he didn't keel over.  That came 93o years later.  This isn't arguable.  It's very clear.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

The most documented death in existence is that of our Lord Jesus.

Not sure what you mean here, but certainly His death is the most consequential death among mankind.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Staring from Gethsemane we can trace "the hour of darkness". In this process our Lord is faced with what Matthew 10:28 threatens - Gehenna. he must pay the exact price for all sis ever committed.

And He did.  The Father and Holy Spirit forsook Him while on the cross being our sin bearer.  He took the full brunt of God's justice against our sins, but on Him.  That is why He quoted Psa 22:1 and possibly the entire Psa.  That is the death that was required to free God's justice to offer the free gift of salvation to everyone.

Just before Jesus dismissed His spirit (John 19:30) He said "tetelestai", which means "paid in full".  He could NOT have said that IF His physical death was required.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

The enormity He faced caused Him to sweat blood and to cry out; "my SOUL is sorrowful unto death". Now, Gehenna is a concept derived from the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem used for burning rubbish and cadavers. It is also the place where the Canaanites, and later Israel, caused their children to pass through fire to appease the demon-god Molech. It is used interchangeably with "The Lake of Fire" and the "Second Death" But these are concepts illustrating God's just deserts for sins. The Greek word that is connected to these concepts/illustrations is "perdition". And Vine tells us that it does not mean death by annihilation or cessation of stimulus (like physical death). It means "exquisite sense of lack of well-being" Thus, Isaiah 66 and Mark 9 both describe perdition as "their (personal) worm will not die and their fire will not be quenched".

I reject all forms of annihilation, since Rev 20:10 is quite clear that those who end up in the lake of fire will be "tormented day and night, for ever and ever".  

What caused such sorrow for Jesus (sweating blood, etc) was knowing that He would be separated (spiritual death) from His Father an the Spirit while on the cross.

Consider:  The Eternal Son had perfect harmony and unity with the Father and Spirit from eternity past.  

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

This is the death threatened in Matthew 10:28.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

This is not a threat.  A threat is a conditional clause, like, IF you do so and so, THEN I'll fire you.  The verse simply states the FACT that God is sovereign and omnipotent and is able to destrory both body and soul.  

But there are no examples of His doing such.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Our Lord Jesus did experience TWO DEATHS but not spiritual death.

Do you have any evidence from Scripture?  I've explained the literal Hebrew in Gen 2:17 and the fact that 2 deaths were involved in eating the fruit.

btw, what do you think was meant when the Trinity SAID:  let US make man in OUR image"?  Huh?  How did Adam reflect the image of God?  The only reasonable answer is that Adam was made tripartite; body, soul and human spirit.  God is a Trinity.

1 Thess 5:23 - May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

There is no record of Him, or anyone else dying a "spiritual death".

Of course there is.  Jesus couldn't have said "paid in full" IF IF IF physical death was part of His mission on the cross.  The ONLY REASON He could say "tetelestai" was because His spiritual death had been accomplished and He really WAS finished in His mission.  His physical death was incidental;  the only way to leave earth to return to His Father.

Remember, Heb 9:27 tells us that "it is appointed for man to die once, and then the judgment".  So even Jesus fulfilled that apointment.  And, of course, He took the full judgment of the sins of all mankind.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Much more, at the point of death, He commits His human spirit to the Father's hand.

His physical death was incidental to His work on the cross, of paying the sin debt for everyone.  That WAS spiritual death for Him.  

Or, explain what in the world Jesus meant when He said, "My God, My God, WHY have you forsaken Me?"  It's not that He didn't know.  He asked the question as a teaching moment for mankind.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Three day later He takes up His human life again, which, as you have pointed out, is the vitality of a man (Jas.2:26).

Are you aware that the Bible acknowleges that Jesus went to Hades and "preached to the spirits in prison" in 1 Peter 3:19 and Eph 4:8-10.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

In accordance with Ecclesiastes 3:21 and 12:7 the spirit is disembodied but suffers no harm.

For those who have believed and been RE-generated, or RE-born, or born AGAIN, I agree that the human spirit will suffer no harm.

But EVERY PERSON born is born physically alive but spiritually dead.  That is why everyone NEEDS to be born AGAIN.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Romans 5:12-17 makes clear what death is for sin and sins - physical.

 Not clear at all.  Could you please quote the pertinent verse(s) that is clear?

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

We are conditioned to accept the doctrine of spiritual death by the unwarranted use of the word "regeneration".

There were 2 deaths mentioned in God's warning to Adam.  You must answer the question of what that means.  There is only 1 answer.

What does "born again" mean to you?  Paul used the words "made alive" in Eph 2 several times.  What did he mean?

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

It is used only twice in the Bible. Matthew 19:28 gives its meaning. The once cursed earth will blossom in the Millennial Kingdom.

"only twice"?  Does that render the word insignificant?  Not at all.  I've given you a number of points that prove that the human spirit needs to be born again.  Adam was created with a living human spirit, but it died when he ate the fruit.

And every human being is born physically alive but spiritually dead (separated from God), just as Jesus was on the cross while bearing the sins of mankind.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

@PATrobas @FreeGrace

The doctrine of spiritual death is a self-made solution to the inability to rightly discern the "DAY" that Adam died in. It is a classic case of "private interpretation" forbidden in 2nd Petr 1:20.

I've given solid evidence from Scripture that supports the fact that Adam's human spirit died when he ate the fruit, and subsequently every human born is born with a dead human spirit, which is WHY everyone needs to be born AGAIN.

Your opinion about spiritual death simpy being a "self-made solution" is nothing more than your own self made solution.  

Jesus could NOT have said "tetelestai" IF IF IF His physical death was necessary to pay for man's sins.  It was His spiritual death that paid the debt and satisfied (propititated) the justice of God.

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Thank you for your reply.

Yet I gave verses that affirm spiritual death.  In fact, "on the day" when Adam ate the fruit, he did die.  That was the warning, and God always carries through when He warns about something.  Adam's human spirit did die, as the warning SAID.

And that is what "spiritual death" refers to;  the death of the human spirit.  btw, how do you understand the words "RE-born", born AGAIN, and RE-generation?  What do they refer to, if not the human spirit at the moment of saving faith in Christ for salvation?  What else could these various words refer to?

There is no threat.  It simply notes that God is able to destroy both body and soul.  Yet, there are no verses of the death of the soul.  btw, the OT has many references to the death of a soul, but the word for "soul" means "the person".  Further, there are verses that show that "soul" and "spirit" have been interchanged.  Yet, Heb 4:12 is quite clear that the soul and spirit ARE related but separate, just as the bones and marrow are related but separate.

Since everyone is born in the state of spiritual death, that is the reason Jesus Christ came to earth and died for the sin debt of everyone.  A debt that no one could pay, so Jesus paid the debt for everyone, so that God's grace would be free to offer the free gift of eternal life to everyone.  Titus 2:11.  God's grace offers salvation to everyone.

Remember, sometimes "soul" and "spirit" are interchangeable in the Bible.  But there is a clear difference between them.

Why put quotes around 'brother'?  Of course he was saved.  Paul turned him over to Satan for discipline that could end in his physical death (not a simple hand slap), but the way for his sinful ways to end.  His salvation was never at risk.

This refers to believers, who have been born again, or their human spirit revived.  Yes, all human spirits return to God at physical death.

What do you make of "souls in heaven" that John SAW and wrote about in Revelation?  And Paul contrasted physical life and death in relation to being with Christ.

2 Cor 5:6,8

6 - Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.

8 - We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

iow, when we are alive, we are "at home" in the body but "away from the Lord".

otoh, when we are "away from the body" (dead) we are "at home with the Lord".

This includes both soul and spirit.  At the resurrection, Jesus brings with Him all the saints who have already died and have been in heaven and they receive their resurrection body in the air, just before those believers who are alive and remain (survive the Tribulation) are caught up together with THEM (Jesus and all dead saints) and "changed in the thinking of the eye" (1 Cor 15:52).  iow, every believer receives a resurrection body.

I repeat from my post to you that Adam died on the day he ate the fruit.  But he didn't keel over.  That came 93o years later.  This isn't arguable.  It's very clear.

Not sure what you mean here, but certainly His death is the most consequential death among mankind.

And He did.  The Father and Holy Spirit forsook Him while on the cross being our sin bearer.  He took the full brunt of God's justice against our sins, but on Him.  That is why He quoted Psa 22:1 and possibly the entire Psa.  That is the death that was required to free God's justice to offer the free gift of salvation to everyone.

Just before Jesus dismissed His spirit (John 19:30) He said "tetelestai", which means "paid in full".  He could NOT have said that IF His physical death was required.

I reject all forms of annihilation, since Rev 20:10 is quite clear that those who end up in the lake of fire will be "tormented day and night, for ever and ever".  

What caused such sorrow for Jesus (sweating blood, etc) was knowing that He would be separated (spiritual death) from His Father an the Spirit while on the cross.

Consider:  The Eternal Son had perfect harmony and unity with the Father and Spirit from eternity past.  

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

This is not a threat.  A threat is a conditional clause, like, IF you do so and so, THEN I'll fire you.  The verse simply states the FACT that God is sovereign and omnipotent and is able to destrory both body and soul.  

But there are no examples of His doing such.

Do you have any evidence from Scripture?  I've explained the literal Hebrew in Gen 2:17 and the fact that 2 deaths were involved in eating the fruit.

btw, what do you think was meant when the Trinity SAID:  let US make man in OUR image"?  Huh?  How did Adam reflect the image of God?  The only reasonable answer is that Adam was made tripartite; body, soul and human spirit.  God is a Trinity.

1 Thess 5:23 - May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Of course there is.  Jesus couldn't have said "paid in full" IF IF IF physical death was part of His mission on the cross.  The ONLY REASON He could say "tetelestai" was because His spiritual death had been accomplished and He really WAS finished in His mission.  His physical death was incidental;  the only way to leave earth to return to His Father.

Remember, Heb 9:27 tells us that "it is appointed for man to die once, and then the judgment".  So even Jesus fulfilled that apointment.  And, of course, He took the full judgment of the sins of all mankind.

His physical death was incidental to His work on the cross, of paying the sin debt for everyone.  That WAS spiritual death for Him.  

Or, explain what in the world Jesus meant when He said, "My God, My God, WHY have you forsaken Me?"  It's not that He didn't know.  He asked the question as a teaching moment for mankind.

Are you aware that the Bible acknowleges that Jesus went to Hades and "preached to the spirits in prison" in 1 Peter 3:19 and Eph 4:8-10.

For those who have believed and been RE-generated, or RE-born, or born AGAIN, I agree that the human spirit will suffer no harm.

But EVERY PERSON born is born physically alive but spiritually dead.  That is why everyone NEEDS to be born AGAIN.

 Not clear at all.  Could you please quote the pertinent verse(s) that is clear?

There were 2 deaths mentioned in God's warning to Adam.  You must answer the question of what that means.  There is only 1 answer.

What does "born again" mean to you?  Paul used the words "made alive" in Eph 2 several times.  What did he mean?

"only twice"?  Does that render the word insignificant?  Not at all.  I've given you a number of points that prove that the human spirit needs to be born again.  Adam was created with a living human spirit, but it died when he ate the fruit.

And every human being is born physically alive but spiritually dead (separated from God), just as Jesus was on the cross while bearing the sins of mankind.

 

11 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I've given solid evidence from Scripture that supports the fact that Adam's human spirit died when he ate the fruit, and subsequently every human born is born with a dead human spirit, which is WHY everyone needs to be born AGAIN.

Your opinion about spiritual death simpy being a "self-made solution" is nothing more than your own self made solution.  

Jesus could NOT have said "tetelestai" IF IF IF His physical death was necessary to pay for man's sins.  It was His spiritual death that paid the debt and satisfied (propititated) the justice of God.

Thank you for your replies. You were very comprehensive. I read through your answer twice. In each section you made you made a salient statement of which you did not actually give any scripture. I will point this out.

1. You base spiritual death on two events. (i) Jesus saying "it is finished" before giving up His spirit (although scripture puts them together - Jn.19:30), and (ii) man needing a RE-birth.

(i) This statement "it is finished" cannot mean that our Lord's work was finished. John 7:39 says that we could not receive the Spirit UNTIL Jesus was "glorified". This took place after resurrection (Jn.20:22). We can discuss what was finished, but one thing that is NOT said is that our Lord died a spiritual death. It is neither said, nor implied, nor is there a precedent. You have built a theory for which no scripture exists.

(ii) Adam, and every man who would follow from Eve's womb, experienced a birth. If Adam had not sinned and had eaten of the Tree of Life he would have a SECOND birth in which God's divine life would have entered Him. This I outlined in my very first posting, which you have not refuted with scripture. "Born again" is stated by scripture to be a birth of the SPIRIT (Jn.3:6). According to John 1:12-13 it makes one the SON of God - indicating a birth.

Adam did not die spiritually. Born anew, Born again, Born from above are not the solution to spiritual death. The eating of the Tree of Life was "commanded" BEFORE sin came in. The wages of sin is death and the source, according to Romans 5 is one man, and according to Romans 6 is the flesh. The Adamic nature is passed by the male seed. God made all nations OF ONE BLOOD.

You have chosen not to address my first posting in the thread - which is your right - and you have chosen not to comment on a perfectly good explanation why the First Rest - the first Sabbath, having been pointedly NOT the evening and the morning, but based upon (i) Adam's life duration, (ii) the occupation of the Good Land by Israel and (iii) the future Millennium, - was 1,000 years. A careful reading of Hebrews 3 and 4 defines God's Rest as much longer than one day.

Further, you have made statements that defy scripture. "Souls in heaven"? Where? Jesus preaching to spirits in prison while He was in Hades? Where? The subject is the Holy Spirit - not Christ:-

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, 1 Pe 3:18–20.

- Revelation 14:13 says that a man who has died "Rests from his works".
- The Holy Spirit preached to "spirits" in prison. The SOULS of men are in Hades
And so on ... . Your crucial statements are not documented and you have introduced subjects not mentioned by me - and then commented on the as if I had.

As I said; Let the reader judge.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you for your replies. You were very comprehensive. I read through your answer twice. In each section you made you made a salient statement of which you did not actually give any scripture. I will point this out.

1. You base spiritual death on two events. (i) Jesus saying "it is finished" before giving up His spirit (although scripture puts them together - Jn.19:30), and (ii) man needing a RE-birth.

The FACT that Jesus said "it is finished" BEFORE He died physically is a real big clue.  If His physical death was necessary, He could not have said what He said.  Again, the ONLY REASON He did say it was because He had already paid the debt.  This is quite self evident.  And He gave us a teaching moment when He asked, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"  This shows He was separated from the Trinity while bearing our sins.  Again, self evident.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

(i) This statement "it is finished" cannot mean that our Lord's work was finished.

Well, then don't believe your lying eyes.  Of course it means exactly that.  But since you choose to believe otherwise, I guess there is no common ground left.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

John 7:39 says that we could not receive the Spirit UNTIL Jesus was "glorified". This took place after resurrection (Jn.20:22).

This has nothing to do with the FACT that Jesus was separated from the Trinity while bearing our sins.  That IS IS IS spiritual death.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

We can discuss what was finished, but one thing that is NOT said is that our Lord died a spiritual death. It is neither said, nor implied, nor is there a precedent. You have built a theory for which no scripture exists.

There is no theory and no "precedent" is needed.  The FACTS are self evident.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

(ii) Adam, and every man who would follow from Eve's womb, experienced a birth. If Adam had not sinned and had eaten of the Tree of Life he would have a SECOND birth in which God's divine life would have entered Him. This I outlined in my very first posting, which you have not refuted with scripture.

I don't need to refute any "what if's...".  I only deal with "what is".

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

"Born again" is stated by scripture to be a birth of the SPIRIT (Jn.3:6). According to John 1:12-13 it makes one the SON of God - indicating a birth.

Actually a RE-birth.  Or a RE-generation.  Again, these are also self evident from the words themselves.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Adam did not die spiritually. Born anew, Born again, Born from above are not the solution to spiritual death.

I'm not going to argue with you.  There were 2 deaths in the warning.  What you want to believe is your own business.  But Adam DID die when he ate the fruit, and you can't explain what kind of death he died.  I can.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

The eating of the Tree of Life was "commanded" BEFORE sin came in.

Please give a verse on this.  God told Adam and the woman that they could eat of every tree in the garden except the one.  That is not a command.  The command was they were NOT supposed to eat.  Seems you are confused.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

The wages of sin is death and the source, according to Romans 5 is one man, and according to Romans 6 is the flesh.

Adam didn't have a sin nature until he sinned.  And when he died spiritually.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

You have chosen not to address my first posting in the thread - which is your right - and you have chosen not to comment on a perfectly good explanation why the First Rest - the first Sabbath, having been pointedly NOT the evening and the morning, but based upon (i) Adam's life duration, (ii) the occupation of the Good Land by Israel and (iii) the future Millennium, - was 1,000 years. A careful reading of Hebrews 3 and 4 defines God's Rest as much longer than one day.

Frankly, I don't follow any of this.  The 7th day was a pattern for the Jews to follow.  Where do you base any of what you post here?

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Further, you have made statements that defy scripture. "Souls in heaven"? Where?

Apparently you are not that familiar with Scripture.  Rev 6:9 - When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Jesus preaching to spirits in prison while He was in Hades? Where? The subject is the Holy Spirit - not Christ:-

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, 1 Pe 3:18–20.

Now, this is interesting.  You ask "where" and then you give the verse.  Is that confused, or what?  v.19 is the answer, which you quoted.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

- The Holy Spirit preached to "spirits" in prison.

No, Peter wrote that Jesus did.  The words at the beginning of v.19, "by which" indicates by the power of the Holy Spirit.  Not that the Spirit went and preached to spirits.

The SOULS of men are in Hades

Since Christ's resurrection, only the souls of unbelievers, since Jesus emptied Paradise of all souls of believers from Adam forward and took them to heaven.  That's what Eph 4:4-8 is about.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

And so on ... . Your crucial statements are not documented and you have introduced subjects not mentioned by me - and then commented on the as if I had.

I had no idea what your thoughts were when I made my comments.  They were made to support my views, and it is clear that you have shown unfamiliarity with Scripture.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

As I said; Let the reader judge.

Absolutely.  That is why I post.  Not so much for the other poster, but for anyone who reads the threads for information.

Everyone is accountable for the information they receive.  And everyone has a choice to make; whether to believe or disbelieve what they hear/read.

I have made a point to follow the Bereans of Acts 17:11.  And I've proved it by the Scriptures I have quoted/cited.

And you are free to believe or disbelieve any Scripture.  Meaning, misunderstand.

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

The FACT that Jesus said "it is finished" BEFORE He died physically is a real big clue.  If His physical death was necessary, He could not have said what He said.  Again, the ONLY REASON He did say it was because He had already paid the debt.  This is quite self evident.  And He gave us a teaching moment when He asked, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"  This shows He was separated from the Trinity while bearing our sins.  Again, self evident.

Why not give a few scriptures. Such a huge assumption is surely backed by multiple scriptures. Maybe you can explain why blood was needed if spiritual death was the goal. What killed Jesus spiritually? The cry of "my God, my God" shows tat His cry was made as a Man. Or maybe you can explain why He says in the tomb garden I go to MY God and YOUR God. Was He still separated from the Trinity? And is the Trinity still a Trinity if Jesus' Godhead is dissolved.

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Please give a verse on this.  God told Adam and the woman that they could eat of every tree in the garden except the one.  That is not a command.  The command was they were NOT supposed to eat.  Seems you are confused.

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: (Gen.2:16).

The Hebrew word is the same word for the Law in Exodus 19:7.

That is the trouble with personal jabs like "confused" and "lying eyes".

You teach a gospel that needs spiritual death for the remission of sins. The Bible teaches the shedding of blood is needed.

Shall I go further?

[Jedi4Yahweh]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The FACT that Jesus said "it is finished" BEFORE He died physically is a real big clue.  If His physical death was necessary, He could not have said what He said.  Again, the ONLY REASON He did say it was because He had already paid the debt.  This is quite self evident.  And He gave us a teaching moment when He asked, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"  This shows He was separated from the Trinity while bearing our sins.  Again, self evident.

Yes, the purpose of why he came and died was finished but that does not mean all of what the Law and Prophets said of Messiah are finished.  The law and prophets also spoke of many more prophecies that have not been fulfilled and will not be fulfilled until his return.  There are still future prophecies that are still unfulfilled regarding his 2nd coming, Millennial reign,  New Jerusalem, and the New Heaven and New Earth spoken of in the Law and Prophets.

This is why Jesus said said it would be easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the Law to pass away, and not one jot or tittle will of the Law and Prophets will in no wise pass from the law until ALL be fulfilled.    

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. - Mat 5:17-19