How God Is Bringing The Good Work In Us To Completion

[Vine Abider]

10 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Thanks that is exactly what I was looking for. I have the works of Charles Spurgeon and G.H. Pember in my LOGOS digital library, but not Govett, Lang, and Panton. You are correct with Govett & Spurgeon, Lang & Pember.

In my resources of Spurgeon and Pember, I have yet to run across mentions of Govett, Lang, and Panton. Probably because I was not looking for them, that is the information I wanted to dig deeper into from these peer-respected scholars.

I read Wikipedia (not the best source) information on the three (Lang, Govett, and Panton), all 17th and early 18th century scholars. Their views conform to what you and @AdHoc have stated. I will take a serious look at their commentary and consider it.

From the little I have researched so far, according to Wikipedia, their original views, denominations, and teachings have changed. Not having any confidence in Wikipedia theology, I went to order the works of Govett first to add to my library and study. I needed a defibrillator to restart my heart, one to seven thousand dollars for some volumes.

Anyway, I have Spurgeon and Pember to run a search to mention them and partial Raptures.

I am still interested in whether any of the Anti-Nicene fathers held this view or if this is reformed theology. I hold Spurgeon and Pember in high regard and cannot say I have ever read anything from Govett, Land, or Panton.

Again, thanks a lot; I now have a path in studying this subject. Who knows, my hermeneutics may change; it has happened before.

So I brought up the subject last night with my small brothers' group (not pertaining to our physical stature - LOL), of when Christians stop maturing.  I asked if there are any specific verses stating that maturing continues in the millennium. We did come up with some interesting things that would seem to support this, which I will outline.  But here's also something to note - we couldn't cite any verses which specifically state that the believer's maturing stops at the end of this life.  I'm wondering if anyone else can cite verses supporting that (apparently accepted by many) notion - what do you think?

Indications growth of God's children continues after this life/in the kingdom age:

1. The 10 virgins parable in Matthew 25 - they all slept (died). The foolish ones were told to go buy oil (Spirit) so their lamps wouldn't go out, while the wise ones went into the wedding feast. (Note - there is no indication that the 10 virgins were anything but believers, for numerous reasons)

2. The Faithful/Unfaithful servants parable in Matthew 25 & Luke 19 - the unfaithful one was thrown into outer darkness.  That is, he did not receive a reward for what he did in this life, and forfeited his reigning in the kingdom.  He is assigned a portion with the hypocrites (or actors). In the parallel account in Luke, the faithful servants are made rulers over cities, however the unfaithful one has his ruling portion given away.  Therefore it would seem the kingdom age will be a time for the unfaithful one to learn and grow, apart from the more glorious position of ruling with Christ.

3. In the unforgiving servant parable in Matthew 18, that servant was thrown in jail until he repaid it all. This would seem to indicate that he will be doing something in the next age to make up for what he lacked in this life. 

4. In numerous places we are told we will be completed or matured fully.  Should we think that ones who don't cooperate with the Lord in this life, and therefore don't grow properly in this life, will be left in that state for eternity?  God doesn't want babies - He wants mature sons in Christ to fulfill His purpose of having dominion and displaying a proper expression of God over His creation.

So it makes sense that we will continue to mature and come into a full grown stature in Christ, whether in this age or the next.  That is, many sons will be brought into full glory and fellowship with Him.

I feel there's much more to be said and verses to give, but for simplicity I'll stop there. Thanks for your inquiry and openness! 

CC: @AdHoc

 

[Ray12614]

15 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I'm glad you isolated that verse. It gives me an opportunity to answer it with focus. I will answer it from three angles.

1. First - the pure word of God. Ten Virgins went forth to meet the Bridegroom. They are identical in six to seven points. They are all virgins, they have the same goal, they enter their journey looking for the coming of the Lord, they have burning Lamps, they all slept because the Bridegroom delayed, they all awoke together at the call, they were all still intent on meeting the Bridegroom and all ten belong to a quest for the Kingdom of Heaven. They differ in only one point. Five thought that falling asleep with no oil in their VESSELS (not Lamps) was easily compensated after resurrection FOR FREE.

There is not a single ground to make the Virgins different except in attitude. Proverbs tells us that the spirit of man is the Lamp of the Lord. All ten Virgins ad burning lamps. The issue was not the lamps but the supply for the future wedding feast. The foolish Virgins are sent to BUY. While the oil in the Lamps was certainly free, the extra oil in the VESSELS had to be BOUGHT. But though a price was paid by the foolish Virgins, they are still not allowed into the wedding feast.

It is not the point to explain the word "know" in verse 12 but it does not mean that our Lord Jesus did not have intellectual knowledge of them. Furthermore, no sin is recorded. Unlike the wedding feast of Mathew 22 and Revelation 19, the garment is not an issue. These Virgins are refused entry the second time for no apparent reason. EXCEPT if the Kingdom/Wedding Feast is a REWARD for being "known" (oida - Gk.). The sorry truth of the whole parable is that to ENTER the Kingdom / Wedding Feast one must have had intimate knowledge of Jesus and in turn He wold have been able to teach them that THERE IS A PRICE TO PAY TO ENTER THE KINGDOM. What ever meaning one likes to draw from the parable, the word "BUY" remains the same. You pay a price.

2. Second - current doctrine that salvation is a PLACE - Heaven. If a new Christian is taught that he must believe in Jesus and will go to heaven, there is nothing more to do than believe. But if the new convert s taught that "destruction" or "perdition" is a STATE of "THEIR worms that will not die and THEIR fire that will not be quenched" then the PLACE of perdition is INSIDE man. And the REWARD for being faithful, according to Matthew 25 is to enter THE JOY of te Lord then heaven remains a place for God's Throne and the EARTH GETS GOD RULE by men who are full of JOY.

But how was this JOY attained to? Matthew 25 is clear. You, being a SERVANT, are give a JOB to do with EQUIPMENT from the Lord - Talents. The SERVANT (one who serves - WORK) who did not DO (work) was not robbed of his status of SERVANT, but cast out of the KINGDOM. Of heaven NOTHING is said. And of a FREE RIDE danger is attached.

3. Third - the Nicolaitan System. Have you ever found, among Christian literature, a scholarly work on this phenomena. NO? I'll tell you why. Nearly everybody is involved. Nicolaitan is a compound word meaning "Victor over the common man". When Israel demanded a king they gave the following reason; "we want to be like the Nations and have ONE to judge us all" (1st Sam.8). God's design for the earth was "let THEM have dominion". His design for Israel was that His Word would be studied by all and the whole village would decide. And His design for the Church was "when you are all gathered together" (1st Cor.5). In all cases the "GATHERING was to study the Word and apply it justly if  a sinner rose up". This way, God would remain KING through His Word.

Any deviation from the "Ekklesia" opened the door for corruption. But already in Ephesus in about 95 AD men who proposed themselves more capable that God's people have taken "thrones" over the Laity. And the laity love it. But God hates it. Men, knowingly and unknowingly will not teach the full gospel BECAUSE THEY LIVE OFF THE LAITY. Anything unpleasant is simply ignored. But the main theme of the New Testament is the Kingdom and the PRICE for the Kingdom is 1. give away your goods and 2. deny your soul-life and put your flesh on the YOUR cross. Judge if this a main them in your Assembly;

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matt.16:24–28.

Do you know what losing your "soul-life" entails? Ask our Lord Who sweated blood! Let's have a vote. Count how many times this last year your teacher, or any big TV preacher taught this. He won't because his livelihood and/or fame would diminish rapidly.

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, ... 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you ... (2nd Pet.2:1–3).

Salvation from Perdition, Eternal Life and resurrection are FREE. The KINGDOM can be lost. the PRICE is your life.

Thank you for your thoughtful response to the OP, it has helped me more than you know.

You articulated what I have pondered many times, and yet I was wondering IF I was correctly dividing the scriptures . . . so I at least can say that somebody else has seen what I've been pondering for a long time namely equating the 'Kingdom of God' with eternal salvation is an over simplification regarding eternal salvation.

IF the parable of the ten virgins was an teaching about how the 5 virgins who ran out of oil would be eternally dammed, then that seems to violate the simplicity of faith in Christ for salvation from eternal damnation.

How does the following scripture factor into this . . . Romans 14:17? For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Thanks much! Ray . .  . 

[Dennis1209]

7 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

2. The Faithful/Unfaithful servants parable in Matthew 25 & Luke 19 - the unfaithful one was thrown into outer darkness.  That is, he did not receive a reward for what he did in this life, and forfeited his reigning in the kingdom.  He is assigned a portion with the hypocrites (or actors). In the parallel account in Luke, the faithful servants are made rulers over cities, however the unfaithful one has his ruling portion given away.  Therefore it would seem the kingdom age will be a time for the unfaithful one to learn and grow, apart from the more glorious position of ruling with Christ.

OPINION

What gets anyone into the Kingdom (Millennium), and what strictly excludes entrance? It is all about what you quoted above: faith, faith in One Person alone, Jesus Christ. It does not say nor imply that the unproductive one was thrown into outer darkness (Hell), but the faithless. Will any faithless (unbelievers) be allowed to enter the millennial reign of Christ initially? No. 

Our Kingdom rewards, positions, and authority are based on works, the works for the Kingdom that will be fleshed out by fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

I believe everyone who has faith and is saved, even those with faith the size of a mustard seed, will be allowed entrance into the Kingdom, albeit with no rewards or positional authority. However, based on AdHoc and your view, particularly with the information you provided to me, with the views I was not aware of, Spurgeon, Pember, etc., I am going to reevaluate my exegesis without lifelong preconceived notions and an open mind.

The same applies to the parables of the Talents and Ten Virgins.

[AdHoc]

21 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi VA,

Jesus is speaking to the children of Israel whom He came to when on earth. He is reminding them of the rulership of heaven through Israel, in the millennium. (Rom. 15: 8)

We are not in the millennium on earth.

 

21 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

You are confusing what the Lord said to Israel concerning their inheritance and what the Lord has said to His Body when He ascended to the Father. 

1. God`s plan for the members of the Body is to be made like Christ. (Rom. 8: 29) We are to rule from His own throne in the third heaven. 

2. God`s plan for Israel as a nation is to rule the nations of the world righteously, in the millennium.

3. The harvests are for Israel and the nations, NOT the Body of Christ. 

 

21 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Again, you confuse what the Lord said to the Children of Israel while He was on earth, and what the Lord says to His Body when He ascended to the Father. 

The kingdom/rule for Israel as a nation is in the millennium. It is the kingdom rule of the Lord through Israel.

The rule of Christ on His own throne with His Body is over ALL of God`s great kingdom. 

The word `kingdom` is used for many different aspects of God`s great kingdom/rule.

 

A Kingdom is the dominion, rule and reign of the King.

 

In God`s Word there are many kingdoms mentioned –

 

-         The Kingdom of God.

-         The Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ.

-         The Kingdom of Heaven.

-         The Kingdom of Israel.

-         The Kingdoms of this world.

-         The Kingdom of Darkness.

 

All these Kingdoms come under the Kingdom of God. He made different realms and different rulership positions. However, those ruling, will be judged on how they ruled.

 

Although everything was created good, rebellion came in. Over time as this rebellion is addressed then all rule, authority and power will come under God and His rulership through those He chooses.

 

 Hi Sister. How are you? Thanks for your input.

Here is my understanding.

God made man of the earth and for the earth (Gen,1:26-28). If God does not reach these goals, he and His Book are Imposters. We are then both wrong and the Bible can be discarded. If He is Who He says He is, His councils are immutable. He will do as He says and no-one can stop Him. Heaven as a destination for men is never said nor eve alluded to.

From the said scripture in Genesis 1, through Noah's duties, to Abraham,man's attempts to reach heaven are promptly thwarted by God. Man, impotent against gravity, stays on earth. According to grammar that gives language consistency of meaning, Jesus prayed His father for HIS kingdom and the Kingdom in heaven to come to earth. This Kingdom was offered to Israel. The King could have easily been confirmed by the tax records at Bethlehem and was confirmed by His miracles.

Israel's response was to plan to murder Him, hound Him, and attribute His miracles, including two that had never been seen on earth before, to the power of Beelzebub. Since an affront to the Holy Spirit, by Whom Jesus did these miracles, Israel cannot be forgiven in this age or the next. Jesus withdraws light and knowledge of the Kingdom by speaking before Israel in Parables. He later advises Israel that the Kingdom is ripped from them and given to another People. It reads in Matthew 21:42–44:

42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Forty years later God took away their City, Temple, Land and had about 1.5 million of them slaughtered. The remainder He removed from their Land and scattered throughout the earth. They still reject the Kingdom and hate the King. In the mean time, God has raised up a New People and the overcomers of this company will rule Cities (Lk.19:17-19).

Shortly, Christ will return and restore Israel Nationally. Now, what is going to be tested is whether you believe God is impotent to keep His Word about an affront to the Holy Spirit and whether he is able to give rule of this earth to those He promised and who need a new birth for this Kingdom - a birth that Israel still refuses.

Matthew 21 above is Jehovah's Word. Let us see if you believe it or not.

[Marilyn C]

3 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

 

 

 Hi Sister. How are you? Thanks for your input.

Here is my understanding.

God made man of the earth and for the earth (Gen,1:26-28). If God does not reach these goals, he and His Book are Imposters. We are then both wrong and the Bible can be discarded. If He is Who He says He is, His councils are immutable. He will do as He says and no-one can stop Him. Heaven as a destination for men is never said nor eve alluded to.

 

 

 

Hi Ad Hoc,

Always a good `iron sharpens iron,` with you.

Now not so fast there with God`s word. Let`s have a closer look.

`The first man was of the earth made of dust; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As was the man of dust, as also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are heavenly. 

And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly man. ` (1 Cor. 15: 47 - 49)

There will be those who were before Christ died that looked to God, they will inherit the earth. However, those in the Body of Christ have the Lord`s very own character within them. They will inherit rulership with the Lord on His own throne in the third heaven over all God`s great kingdom.

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on My throne...` (Rev. 3: 21)

[Dennis1209]

9 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Heaven as a destination for men is never said nor eve alluded to.

I agree that we were created out of the dirt, for the earth, and earth will be our eternal home. No man has ever seen God at any time; we see Him through the bosom of our Lord, Christ Jesus. I speculate we will never see the Father other than through Christ.

However, who do you view the 24-Elders as? 

[Marilyn C]

13 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

 

From the said scripture in Genesis 1, through Noah's duties, to Abraham,man's attempts to reach heaven are promptly thwarted by God. Man, impotent against gravity, stays on earth. According to grammar that gives language consistency of meaning, Jesus prayed His father for HIS kingdom and the Kingdom in heaven to come to earth. This Kingdom was offered to Israel. The King could have easily been confirmed by the tax records at Bethlehem and was confirmed by His miracles.

Israel's response was to plan to murder Him, hound Him, and attribute His miracles, including two that had never been seen on earth before, to the power of Beelzebub. Since an affront to the Holy Spirit, by Whom Jesus did these miracles, Israel cannot be forgiven in this age or the next. Jesus withdraws light and knowledge of the Kingdom by speaking before Israel in Parables. He later advises Israel that the Kingdom is ripped from them and given to another People. It reads in Matthew 21:42–44:

42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Forty years later God took away their City, Temple, Land and had about 1.5 million of them slaughtered. The remainder He removed from their Land and scattered throughout the earth. They still reject the Kingdom and hate the King. In the mean time, God has raised up a New People and the overcomers of this company will rule Cities (Lk.19:17-19).

Shortly, Christ will return and restore Israel Nationally. Now, what is going to be tested is whether you believe God is impotent to keep His Word about an affront to the Holy Spirit and whether he is able to give rule of this earth to those He promised and who need a new birth for this Kingdom - a birth that Israel still refuses.

Matthew 21 above is Jehovah's Word. Let us see if you believe it or not.

So, God made an `oops` when He made Israel even though He knew they would reject Him. And we know that God doesn`t do `oopses.` 

Now Jesus did not say that the whole Nation of Israel from then on would not receive His kingdom rule in the millennium. He was speaking specifically to the chief priest and Pharisees. 

`Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking to THEM.` (Matt. 21: 45)

We, the Body of Christ are only overcomers because of Christ`s life within. Israel will also be given the Lord`s Spirit to receive Him as their Messiah.

`It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication;...` (Zech. 12: 

 

[Marilyn C]

14 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

I agree that we were created out of the dirt, for the earth, and earth will be our eternal home. No man has ever seen God at any time; we see Him through the bosom of our Lord, Christ Jesus. I speculate we will never see the Father other than through Christ.

However, who do you view the 24-Elders as? 

Dennis,

We, the believers in the Body of Christ are not of the earth anymore. We are of the heavenly man, Christ. We rule and reign over all of God`s great kingdom not just this speck in the universe.

[Dennis1209]

4 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Dennis,

We, the believers in the Body of Christ are not of the earth anymore. We are of the heavenly man, Christ. We rule and reign over all of God`s great kingdom not just this speck in the universe.

Hi Marilyn,

I do not know about that. The Tribulation and Millennium are the culmination of God's plan for mankind from Adam. Was Adam created to rule the universe or planet Earth? In addition, the New Jerusalem coming to earth will be our eternal home. 

[Marilyn C]

5 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Hi Marilyn,

I do not know about that. The Tribulation and Millennium are the culmination of God's plan for mankind from Adam. Was Adam created to rule the universe or planet Earth? In addition, the New Jerusalem coming to earth will be our eternal home. 

We are busy today. 

Adam was created to rule the earth. And that will be the nations in Rev. 21: 24..

Now the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven FROM God. It does not come to the earth but is in the universal realm where the Lord has made a ruling position. (Col. 1: 16 Principalities and powers - Satan usurped that authority).

Then, the second Adam, Christ, was manifested to become a `life-giving spirit.` And that life is His not Adam`s. We have that life of Christ and will rule and reign with Him in the third heaven over all God`s great kingdom.