Birth Pangs & First Fruits

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, and I can agree with you to a point.  I don't see Christ saying that about Himself, when in the previous sentence and the one immediately afterward, He is directly referring to the overcomers in Thyatira.  Here is the passage in Rev 2:26-28 again in the NIV with most punctuation removed (as per original):

To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end I will give authority over the nations that one will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery just as I have received authority from my Father I will also give that one the morning star. Whoever has ears let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

and in the NASB: The one who overcomes, and the one who keeps My deeds until the end I will give him authority over the nations AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE SHATTERED, as I also have received authority from My Father and I will give him the morning star. The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

To me this is clear that Jesus is not speaking of Himself, but rather the overcomer who is filled with Christ's life.

 

So VA, in the quote - 

AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE SHATTERED,

which is from Ps. 2: 9, we, the Body of Christ are mentioned there?

[Vine Abider]

36 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

So VA, in the quote - 

AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE SHATTERED,

which is from Ps. 2: 9, we, the Body of Christ are mentioned there?

No, but we are now included in Christ, right?

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

No, but we are now included in Christ, right?

Yes, we are, however, the Father never gave us `all power and authority` etc. 

Remember Jesus said after His resurrection -

`All authority has been given me in heaven and on earth...` (Matt. 28: 18)

We are only given some power and authority under the Lord. 

So.....when does Jesus leave the Father`s throne and the Father set Him on Mount Zion as King? (Ps. 2: 6 - 9.  the quote we are looking at.)

[Vine Abider]

10 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Yes, we are, however, the Father never gave us `all power and authority` etc. 

Remember Jesus said after His resurrection -

`All authority has been given me in heaven and on earth...` (Matt. 28: 18)

We are only given some power and authority under the Lord. 

So.....when does Jesus leave the Father`s throne and the Father set Him on Mount Zion as King? (Ps. 2: 6 - 9.  the quote we are looking at.)

Yes, there is only one King of Kings and Lord of Lord. However, the promise and purpose of the new covenant is Christ in us and operating through us, is it not?  So no, we don't take the ultimate position of power.

Yet, He is incredibly generous with sharing His power and glory!  Glory is God's expression, and what a glory it will be when He has a full expression through us, the ones the devil has had such a time with!

This is the vision communicated by Paul in Ephesians, is it not? In that epistle we have so many high and glorious things God is bestowing on the ekklesia:

the riches of his glorious inheritance in His saints

appointed Him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

in Him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms

And in Romans: The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. 

And in 1st Corinthians:  All things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

The most glorious thing will be when God will use men, regenerated with the life of Christ having dominion in and through them, to bring down the enemy which has slandered both God and man for so long.  This will be accomplished through the last Adam (Christ), who became the life-giving Spirit to live inside humans to make them the many sons of God brought into glory! 

Oh hallelujah! 

 

[WilliamL]

On 12/25/2024 at 1:07 PM, Michael37 said:

How would you explain the phrase "new spirit-forms" in a Biblical Theology lesson?

I would say, for an example, that "the body of Christ," the Church, was a new spirit-form that did not exist before the coming of Jesus in the flesh.

Likewise, neither did the congregation of Israel exist in the days of Abraham.

Likewise the New Jerusalem. These all became new spirit-forms long after the original seven days of Creation.

[WilliamL]

On 12/25/2024 at 4:55 PM, AdHoc said:

I also don't want to apologize because if I am limited, it is how the Lord wants it. But, in my limitedness I make the following observations:
1. All religions that want to claim extra revelation go to an authority outside the Bible.

Jesus and Paul, for two examples, made extra revelations outside of the teachings of the Tanakh, the Bible of their time. The Church, the "body of Christ," was never revealed as such to the OT prophets.

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Isn't that a wonderful verse!?!  One has to chew on that and really let it soak in.

Here's a paraphrased amplification of those verses I thought of: "The wisdom of God was mysterious and hidden before regarding our glory.  And if the rulers of this world would have known that planting the One Seed in the ground through death, would result in many sons springing forth in His likeness, they wouldn't have crucified the Lord, the original source of that glory!"

And again, that mystery which was hidden for ages and is now revealed is just "Christ in you, the hope of glory."

[AdHoc]

On 12/28/2024 at 12:39 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

First it is Mary and now Israel as a red herring. The sign is about JESUS.

All the details are SYMBOLIC. 

Heaven is symbolic of not of the earth, not of man`s volition. Israel was conceived through a miracle of God.

Yes, Israel is not a sign but the `child` is. Jesus.

`Therefore the LORD Himself will give you a sign: behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.` (Isa. 7: 14)

It is not Israel pregnant in heaven but an indication that the `woman` (Israel) was conceived through a miracle of God. 

Quite. What you quote is answer to another who maintains that the woman is Israel. I showed why not. You have unwittingly agreed with me in the overall. But your detail is amiss.

The "sign" of Isaiah 7:14 is not Jesus. It is the once-off of a Virgin getting pregnant and a human woman bringing forth "God with us". If God's law of KINDS is true, the Virgin produced a MAN and Who inseminated her, produce His KIND - God. Thus, a Man could be "God with us".

[AdHoc]

On 12/28/2024 at 1:05 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

You are mixing narrative grammar with a quote from the Old Testament.

Narrative: `But hold fast what you have till I come. And he who overcomes, and keeps my works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations - `(Rev. 2: 25 & 26)

Quote: `he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the potter`s vessels shall be broken in pieces...` (Rev. 2: 27)

Let`s now look at the context of the quote in Ps. 2.

`The LORD has said to me, "You are My Son today I have begotten you. Ask of Me, and I will give you the nations for your inheritance and the ends of the earth for your possession.

You shall break them with a rod of iron; you shall dash them in pieces like a potter`s vessel. ` (Ps. 2: 7 - 9)

In a sense you are right. Psalm 2 does speak of Jesus. But the Author of Revelation, Jesus Himself, MODIFIES it. This you (conveniently) left out;

 25 But that which YE (Believers) have already hold fast till I come. 26 And HE (the Belever) that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And HE shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: EVEN AS I received of my Father. (Rev.2:25–27)

If the HE of verse 27 was Jesus, the "EVEN AS ... " would be nonsense. It would be the investment of power on Jesus by someone other that God, and written in the first person makes no sense

[AdHoc]

On 12/28/2024 at 5:42 AM, Revelation Man said:

Gal. 3:16 clearly says Jesus is that ONE SEED !! Not many seeds but just ONE SEED, Christ Jesus.  Then we see Satan gets angry because he can not get at "The Woman" Israel, or better yet the 1/3 who repent which Zech. 13:8-9 says God protects, whilst the 2/3 will die. So, the 2/3 can not be The Remnant because its not a remnant, plus they never repent so they do not have the Testimony of Jesus, meanwhile the 1/3 are the ones Satan's Anti-Christ Army can not get at because the EARTH PROTECTS HER, just like in Egypt remember? God used the Wall of Fire and the Red Sea (THE EARTH) to protect Israel. That is what God does here also, and He also uses the Earth/Mountainous area which is like unto a Sheepfold that protects the sheep. So, this "Remnant can not be a Jewish Remnant, it can only be a Gentile Church Remnant (Small part of a bigger part), which means the Church of Christ is in Heaven, marrying Jesus during this time of troubles.

By this argument you annul TWO other SEEDS - "seed as the stars" and "seed as sand of the sea shore. But more than this you make the Seed of ABRAHAM the seed of the WOMAN. Christ in Galatians is the SEED that would bring the Holy Spirit to men. This, the other SEEDS (plural) could not do.

You tried to answer my objections, and for this I thank you, but you did not attack the point I made. Like Israel siring the Church. Scripture says "BORN of the SPIRIT". To say that Israel sired the Church is the most remarkable statement I've heard from a Christian.  Read Ephesians 2:15. If Israel sired the Church then they are bound by THE LAW and CIRCUMCISION!

You gave no explanations as to the differences between Genesis 37 and Revelation 12.

Israel worshiped Satan. Even a cursory study of the Egyptian gods will show the chief god. This Israel worshiped;

14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD (Jos.24:14–15).

Their future is to worship the drgaon (Rev.13:3 - "ALL the world").

I'll let the reader judge.