Selective Rapture

[Feedmysheep]

When the disciples asked Jesus WHERE are these taken ones taken, Jesus mentions birds of prey or vultures being where the corpse or body is. (Luke 17:36,37; comp. Matt. 24:27,28) 

Taken in context of Matt. 24:15 and 21 imply that at the end of this age Antichrist will be the cause of the great tribulation. It is Antichrist who is most in need of judgment and to be destroyed.

 All people in Adam are dead ( 1 Cor. 15:22a). For just as in Adam all die, . . . 

 The culmination of deadness in Adam climaxes in the Antichrist. And Antichrist the evil lawless man of death will war against the Lord Jesus Christ at Armageddon (Rev. 19:17-21). In the eyes of Christ "the life" Antichrist is a stinking corpse. Antichrist is the rotten climax of death in Adam. Antichrist is good for nothing except the vultures' appetite. 

 Furthermore in the Bible both the Lord and His trusting believers are likened to an eagle. 

 Exo. 19:4 - You have seen what I did to the Egyptians and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to Myself.

Deut. 32:11 - As the eagle rouses his nest, / Hovers over his young, / Spreads his wings, takes them, / And bears them up upon his pinions;

 Isa. 40:31 - Yet those who wait on Jehovah will renew their strength; / They will mount up with wings like eagles; / They will run and will not become weary; / They will walk and will not faint.

And swift destroying armies are likened to flying eagles. 

Deut. 28:49 -Jehovah will bring against you a nation from far away, from the end of the earth, like the eagle that swoops down, a nation whose tongue you will not understand,

Hosea 8:1 - A trumpet to your lips! / Like an eagle he comes against the house of Jehovah, / Because they have trespassed My covenant / And have transgressed against My law.

I believe the vultures of Matthew 24 and Luke 17 are preditory birds of the eagle kind. They refer to Christ and His overcomers which will come as a swift, flying army to war against  Antichrist and his armies. Swiftly then, Christ will and His army will execute judgment upon Antichrist at Armageddom. 

I will add a bit more latter. 

  

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

When verses are shown to you it is as if you have eyes to see but cannot see.

Not true.  Our difference is that I don't use conjecture.  You called 1 Cor 15:23 a "general statement".  That seems to be an excuse to not take it straight up literally.  Well, the verse is a straight up statement about resurrection.  There is no room for finding ways to "get around" it.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

And your way of finding some problem with every other sentence I write reveals more to me a will power resistance to seeing.

I'm only pointing out how much you presume, etc.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

There is such a thing as accurate "speculation" and true "conjecture" and inference to the best explanation.

Actually, no, there's not such a thing.  When we have straight forward verses on the resurrection that make clear there is only 1 resurrection which will be "when He comes" speculation, conjecture and inference all go out the window.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

If John says He saw a Lamb standing, you probably have no problem undertstanding that that means the Redeemer, the slain and resurrected Christ.

I would need to see the context.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

If John says he saw 144,000 singing saints whose voice came out of heaven and they are before the Lamb, the elders, and the four living creatures, now that is guessing, speculation, conjecture.

I never said that was.  But given all who are there, the scene is obviously in heaven.  And since the Tribulation isn't over at that point, there has been no resurrection yet.  So that shows that the 144K have died, most likely by martyrdom.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

The sign is clear. Saved people who followed the Lamb find themselves standing before Jesus Christ in Heaven. 

ALL dead saved people are in heaven NOW.  And none of them have been resurrected yet.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

If John says he saw a great multitude in heaven you say that they were raptured is speculatin, conjecture, guessing.

Because there are NO verses describing such an event.  Every dead saint is in heaven.  Why would anyone need to speculate as to how they got there.  Jesus even told us how the poor man Lazarus went to Paradise;  escorted by angels who carried him.  That is not a rapture.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

 The face value meaning is that a great multitude found themselves taken to heaven. 

OK, I need context for what you are referring to.  Please show me where they were "taken".  Lazarus was taken to paradise by angels.  That was no rapture.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

So I think your skepticism is selective.

Oh, it is very selective.  When verses/passages are NOT clear, plain language, I'm very skeptical about what people say about them.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

There must be some a priori commitment to some strongly held belief that influences a prejudicial view that any other evidence of it is guess work - Ie. "But where's the verses? You haven't shown me the verses."

You mean there's some kind of "equal value" beyond "the verses" to understand??

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

I guess you're just not ready to see the verses yet. Or maybe if you believe them you'll think there is some assumption that you'll have to change your mind about. 

What verses haven't I seen yet?  I've already asked for any verses that describe a trip to heaven in resurrection bodies.  And I have acknowledged that the souls of ALL believers go to heaven at death, but the Bible does not call or describe that as a rapture.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<Remember what occurs WHEN the saints from heaven who will be accompanying Christ back to earth;  wedding supper.>>>

So here you admit that some saints are there in heaven. But you say there is no rapture.

Of course I admit that.  In fact, I have been pointing out consistently that EVERY saved person in history who has died is NOW in heaven.  So what?  Doesn't support your claim.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

I think you taught that dead saints are in heaven. This makes God more the God of death than the God of life.

Oh, good grief.  When I say "dead saints" I'm not talking about their bodies, which are in the ground on earth.  No soul ever dies.  I strongly reject the doctrine of annihilationism.  All souls will exist forever, the saved with God and all the unsaved in the LOF.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

   The evidence of the Bible is that God does not want and we also SHOULD not want to appear in heaven unclothed, naked, without a transfigured body.  That discussion is in Second Corinthians.

The problem is that we simply can't fully understand all that Paul wrote, because the Bible doesn't address the status or condition of souls in heaven.  They are without their physical body, but they are also described as talking and singing in heaven.  So what do you do about that?  And again, there is only 1 resurrection of bodies, given at the Second Advent.  So we DON'T KNOW how souls in heaven appear.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

So you admit saints in heaven ready to come down with Christ. But I say they GOT THERE by what we call Rapture, that is guessing, conjecture,. "Where's the verses ??"  They are staring you right in the face.

No they aren't.  Why didn't Paul include the concept of "rapture" in 2 Cor 5:6,8?

6 - Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 

8 - We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

I'm going with what Jesus said about how Lazarus got to Paradise - carried by angels.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<  The only logical placement of the Bema is AFTER the defeat at Armageddon and the wedding supper. >>>

No it is not. But I used to believe something like that for a long time. Eventually I changed. The Bema judgment seat of Christ must be in the  air for all the saints BEFORE the reward of accompanying Christ down to this victory is the reward to the overcoming  ones.

Except you are forgetting one tiny thing.  What about all the living saints on earth who will survive the trib?  You're leaving them out of the Bema, and Paul said ALL OF US will attend the Bema.  2 Cor 5:10

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

So, I would teach that the judgment seat of Christ takes place BEFORE the bridal army accompanies Christ down from the cloud pavillion to tread the winepress of God's wrath at Armageddon.

Well, that ignores all the surviving believers on earth.  

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<< Believers will be evaluated for "whatever they have done while in their bodies, whether GOOD or BAD" per 2 Cor 5:10.>>>

Yes. And that evaluation will occur BEFORE He grants the reward to come down from the pavillion cloud to defeat Antichrist.

That isn't any "reward" granted.  That is how ALL saints get from heaven back to earth.  Therefore, your conjecture isn't logical.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

The mighty ones who accompany Christ down from the sky are rewarded saints.

There is no rewad attached to the return with Christ.  And you still have the problem of what God does with the non-rewarded saints still in heaven.  And there's nothing in the Bible that says that.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

Compare Joel's prophecy and John's vision: 

(Joel 3:11-13) Hurry and come, / All you surrounding nations, / And be gathered. / There cause Your mighty ones to descend, O Jehovah!

JLet the nations rouse themselves and come up / To the valley of Jehoshaphat. / For there I will sit to judge / All the surrounding nations.

Send forth the sickle, / For the harvest is ripe; / Come, tread, / For the winepress is full; / The wine vats overflow, / For their evil is great. 

(Rev. 19:14-16) And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod; and He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

And He has on His garment and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Not seeing a point here.  Please summarize and show the differences/similarities and include the point.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<So abiding in Christ prepares the believer for reward at the Bema.>>>  

I'm glad that  we agree on that.

Above I have tried to show you it is REWARDED ones as "mighty ones" or His victoruious bridal army which comes down to the Holy Land in Israel. It is very practical. Joel mentions the geographic location to which Christ and His mighty ones descend. 

Jesus brings every saint in heaven with Him because that is the ONLY WAY for every believer to receive their glorified immortal resurrection body.  Seems you keep forgetting that.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

Now, Rapture in Luke 17:36,37 indicates that the ones taken (overcoming watchful ones) are taken to the place where birds of prey descend upon the carcus of one slain.

The word never occurs in the Bible, so what word/words in those verses leads you to think of "rapture"?

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

When the disciples ask Jesus about where these raptured ones are taken it is to Armageddon.

What verse shows disciples asking Jesus about ANY "raptured ones"?  Since the word doesn't occur in Scripture, it seems this is just more conjecture.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

He bypasses saying they are taken to heaven because that is a temporary station on their way down with Him as His bridal army. 

Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left.

And they answered and said to Him, Where, Lord? And He said to them, Where the body is, there also will the vultures be gathered together. (Luke 17:36,37)

This is a description of the Second Advent when all the living believers will be caught up to the sky and receive their changed (resurrection) bodies.  1 Thess 4:13-17

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

The overcoming watching ones are taken before the great spectacular supernatural calamity. That is they are raptured in a secretive removal before the great tribulatoin.

Conjecture.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<Rewards have nothing to do with resurrection.  1 Cor 15:23 is very clear;  all believers will be resurrected at the same event:  "when He comes".>>>

Reward will be issued at the Bema.

Every saved person in history will be at the Bema.  It will occur AFTER all have received their resurrection bodies.

Think about this bit of logic.  Just like in the military, ribbons and awards are placed on the UNIFORM.  Why would there be any difference at the Bema?

[Feedmysheep]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 

<<< You called 1 Cor 15:23 a "general statement".  That seems to be an excuse to not take it straight up literally.  Well, the verse is a straight up statement about resurrection.  There is no room for finding ways to "get around" it.>>> 

 There is nothing to "get around." There are more verses to include in the larger picture. 

 To add more details to the larger picture we see (some of us) the resurrection of some who died, to the throne in heaven causing Satan to be driven down to the earth for good. And it clearly is at the beginning of the 3.5 year great tribulation.

Not only do some of see that clear sign. But we also see the accompanying promises that the overcomers who watch or lived in the past watching - will enjoy an early rapture - which is also stragetic rapture. 

 I understand your desire to view those passages as incorrect conjecture because for you 1 Cor. 15:23 is the last word on all matters of rapture  and/or resurrection.

<<<ALL dead saved people are in heaven NOW.  And none of them have been resurrected yet.>>>

  This is the most popular belief.  Show us the most persuasive two or three verses in the Bible that clearly indicate the dead saved  are unclothed and naked souls in Heaven.

  We'll see if there is any  assuming conjecturing going on with you. Perish the thought!

  Why do you believe that right now all the dead in Christ are in Heaven? 

Edited January 9 by Feedmysheep

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<< You called 1 Cor 15:23 a "general statement".  That seems to be an excuse to not take it straight up literally.  Well, the verse is a straight up statement about resurrection.  There is no room for finding ways to "get around" it.>>> 

 There is nothing to "get around." There are more verses to include in the larger picture. 

There is not any verse that makes 1 Cor 15:23 say other than what it already clearly says.  Yes, by claiming there are multiple resurrections/raptures, is an attempt to "get around" 1 Cor 15:23.  There is no getting around it.

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

 To add more details to the larger picture we see (some of us) the resurrection of some who died, to the throne in heaven causing Satan to be driven down to the earth for good. 

Jesus and His disciples raised to life people during Jesus' ministry on earth.  They weren't the singular resurrection where ALL believers will receive glorified immortal bodies.  That's the difference.  Every believer who dies is "at home with the Lord", which is Paul's description of where the dead are.  Not their bodies, but their souls.

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Not only do some of see that clear sign. But we also see the accompanying promises that the overcomers who watch or lived in the past watching - will enjoy an early rapture - which is also stragetic rapture.

Again, I ask for any verse that plainly describes any "enjoying an early rapture", or even a "strategic rapture".  There aren't any.  All you have is conjecture.

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

I understand your desire to view those passages as incorrect conjecture because for you 1 Cor. 15:23 is the last word on all matters of rapture  and/or resurrection.

Why wouldn't it be?  Any more than 1 resurrection for all believers at the same event is a clear statement.  Obviously it is the last word.  And I gave 3 other verses that also state there is just 1 resurrection for the saved, so you're actually resisting against 4 verses, not just 1 Cor 15:23.

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<ALL dead saved people are in heaven NOW.  And none of them have been resurrected yet.>>>

  This is the most popular belief.  Show us the most persuasive two or three verses in the Bible that clearly indicate the dead saved  are unclothed and naked souls in Heaven.

It's the most popular because it is obviously what the Bible indicates concerning where the dead are.  

You still haven't shown ANY verses that plainly say what you say.  When I apply the Berean verification method to your claims, they fail verification, as there are no verses that say what you say.  And you're asking me to defend "the most popular belief"??

I've given plenty of verses that say that there is just 1 resurrection for the saved and 1 for the lost.  That alone refutes your claims.

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

  Why do you believe that right now all the dead in Christ are in Heaven? 

Because before Christ's ascension, all saved people went to Hades, to the compartment called "Paradise", and all unsaved people also went to Hades, to a compartment called or described as "torments".  Jesus referred to Paradise as "Abraham's bosom" in Luke 16.  

When Christ died, He went to Hades and preached to the spirits in prison.  1 Pet 3:19 - in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison.

The Bible also describes Jesus as taking believers to heaven after His resurrection.  

Eph 4:8 - This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 - (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?

Where else do you think some or all dead saints are, other than heaven?

Don't forget 2 Cor 5:6 - Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.  8 - We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

This couldn't any more clear about where the dead in Christ are right now.

I'm curious about your answer to where some or all of the dead in Christ are, if not in heaven.  And please include Scripture that says what you say.

[Feedmysheep]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 

  

<<<Because before Christ's ascension, all saved people went to Hades,>>>

I agree. The saved went . . . 

<<<to the compartment called "Paradise", and all unsaved people also went to Hades, to a compartment called or described as "torments".  Jesus referred to Paradise as "Abraham's bosom" in Luke 16.  >>>

I agree again, I wrote about this previously in one of my threads.

<<<When Christ died, He went to Hades and preached to the spirits in prison.  1 Pet 3:19 - in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison.>>>

That is one traditional speculation. And I think there is a better interpretation.

Christ died and proclaimed His victory over the evil angels who tried to ruin human beings during the days before the ark and the flood.

For Christ also has suffered once for sins, the Righteous on behalf of the unrighteous, that He might bring you to God, on the one hand being put to death in the flesh, but on the other, made alive in the Spirit;

In which also He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,

Who had formerly disobeyed when the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared; entering into which, a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through by water. (1 Pet. 3:18-20)

Christ went and proclaimed the victory over their plot to pollute the human race and destroy God's plans. 

In Genesis 6:1-4 we are told of evil angels "sons of God" who produced the Nephilim to corrupt the human race. 

These perticularly dangerous spirits were singled out for greater confinement in the prisons of the abyss. When Christ was in Hades He announce to them His victory over their plots. 

I think that is a better interpretation of Him speaking to the spirits in prison who were disobedient during the days of the ark's preparation. 

<<<The Bible also describes Jesus as taking believers to heaven after His resurrection.  

Eph 4:8 - This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 - (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?>>>

That too is imo inferior speculation. Ephesians 4:8-12 says that those Christ led as captives He then gave to be gifts to men for the building up of the church.  

(Now this, “He ascended,” what is it except that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth? (v.9)

He who descended, He is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens that He might fill all things.) (v. 10)

And He Himself gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as shepherds and teachers, (v. 11)

 For the perfecting of the saints unto the work of the ministry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ, (v.12)

Your speculation means that Christ led Christians out of Hades, to Heaven, and then sent them back down to the earth to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, and shepherd and teachers to build up the church. 

<<<Where else do you think some or all dead saints are, other than heaven?>>>

Still in Paradise.  If  the dead saints of the OT are in Heaven then surely David should be anong them. Yet we are told that David did not ascend into heaven.

For David did not ascend into the heavens,  (Acts 2:34a)

But the living Apostle Paul and His companions did say that they led as a train of captive former foes by Christ in His triumphal procession.

But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in the Christ and manifests the savor of the knowledge of Him through us in every place. (2 Cor. 2:14) 

<<<Don't forget 2 Cor 5:6 - Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.  8 - We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. >>>

 Those in Paradise are away from the body but relatively more with the Lord. For ity is God's Paradise. 

Our body is in the material realm; the Lord is in the spiritual realm. In this sense we are abroad from the Lord when we are at home in our body. The saints who are unclothed from their body in Paradise under the earth are in this sense more with the Lord. 

The deceased saints are awaiting resurrection while in Paradise. But they are comfortable even as Samuel said he was at rest in Sheol in 1 Sam. 28:15.

And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up? 

And Lazarus is comfortable in Abraham's Bosom in which there is a gulf between himself and the suffering condemned. Abraham is with him too. And Abraham can speak across the unbridgable chasm to the condemns rich man. 

<<<This couldn't any more clear about where the dead in Christ are right now.>>>

 You've just been shown an interpretation which I think is clearer based upon the Scriptures.

<<<I'm curious about your answer to where some or all of the dead in Christ are, if not in heaven.  And please include Scripture that says what you say.>>>

They are in Paradise awaiting resurrection. There they are relatively speaking more with the Lord.  David said as a saint even if he should go to Sheol God would be there with His love and care.

  If I make my bed in Sheol, there You are.(Psalm 139:8b)

To be fair, the same Psalm says that if he went to heaven God would be there. But he has not ascended to heaven. (Acts 2:34)   And he awaits the resurrection with all the other "sleeping" saints there.

Edited January 10 by Feedmysheep

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

  <<<Because before Christ's ascension, all saved people went to Hades,>>>

I agree. The saved went . . .

Right.  What I said . . .

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<When Christ died, He went to Hades and preached to the spirits in prison.  1 Pet 3:19 - in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison.>>>

That is one traditional speculation. And I think there is a better interpretation.

What's to interpret or speculate on?  The words are quite plain and straightforward.

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Christ died and proclaimed His victory over the evil angels who tried to ruin human beings during the days before the ark and the flood.

Where do you think all those angels ARE?

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

For Christ also has suffered once for sins, the Righteous on behalf of the unrighteous, that He might bring you to God, on the one hand being put to death in the flesh, but on the other, made alive in the Spirit;

In which also He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,

Who had formerly disobeyed when the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared; entering into which, a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through by water. (1 Pet. 3:18-20)

Christ went and proclaimed the victory over their plot to pollute the human race and destroy God's plans. 

Sure.  Christ went . . . where?  That's the point.  You haven'given your speculation about where.  I just go by what the Bible says.  

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

In Genesis 6:1-4 we are told of evil angels "sons of God" who produced the Nephilim to corrupt the human race. 

These perticularly dangerous spirits were singled out for greater confinement in the prisons of the abyss. When Christ was in Hades He announce to them His victory over their plots.

I believe I covered on that, by mentioning fallen angels in prison (the abyss).

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

I think that is a better interpretation of Him speaking to the spirits in prison who were disobedient during the days of the ark's preparation.

I guess you don't realize that you said nothing different than what I said.  You just gave more detail.

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<The Bible also describes Jesus as taking believers to heaven after His resurrection.  

Eph 4:8 - This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 - (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?>>>

That too is imo inferior speculation.

One, there is no speculation.  Just the plain words of Scripture, again.

Two, explain how the plain words of Scripture are inferior.  I don't understand that.

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Ephesians 4:8-12 says that those Christ led as captives He then gave to be gifts to men for the building up of the church.  

(Now this, “He ascended,” what is it except that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth? (v.9)

He who descended, He is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens that He might fill all things.) (v. 10)

And He Himself gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as shepherds and teachers, (v. 11)

 For the perfecting of the saints unto the work of the ministry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ, (v.12)

Your speculation means that Christ led Christians out of Hades, to Heaven, and then sent them back down to the earth to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, and shepherd and teachers to build up the church.

I see the problem with your inferior speculation clearly.  v.11 begins a list of communication gifts, for the strengthening of the growing church.  v.9-10 describes where He went after His death and before His ascension.  But v.11 and 12 are clearly about spiritual gifts specifically for the body of Christ and their edification.

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

 <<<Where else do you think some or all dead saints are, other than heaven?>>>

Still in Paradise.  If  the dead saints of the OT are in Heaven then surely David should be anong them. Yet we are told that David did not ascend into heaven.

For David did not ascend into the heavens,  (Acts 2:34a)

Always a good idea to check context, and the truth will become clear.

32 - God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it.

33 - Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

34 - For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

Paul tells us that Jesus was exalted to God's right hand (heaven) and then says that David did not ascend to heaven.  He was referring to when David died.  Why assume, conjecture or speculate that Paul was referring to WHEN Paul was writing??

Since you believe that all OT saints are still in Paradise, in Hades, what verse informs your speculation?

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

But the living Apostle Paul and His companions did say that they led as a train of captive former foes by Christ in His triumphal procession.

But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in the Christ and manifests the savor of the knowledge of Him through us in every place. (2 Cor. 2:14)

Where do you get "former foes"?  Of course Christ triumphed against Satan and sin when He died on the cross.  And that is what He preached in Hades.  The Bible does say anything about "former foes".  I think you have some SPECK-ulation in your eye.

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

 <<<Don't forget 2 Cor 5:6 - Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.  8 - We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. >>>

 Those in Paradise are away from the body but relatively more with the Lord. For ity is God's Paradise.

Interesting how you "form" verses to align with your SPECK-ulations.  "relatively more with the Lord"?  Are you aware of where Hades is?  Center of the earth, which is FARTHER away from heaven than those on the surface of the earth.  I think your SPECK'S need adjusting

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Our body is in the material realm; the Lord is in the spiritual realm.

I am convinced that heaven is a real place, not jus some "spiritual ethereal place" that can't be seen.  Both Paul and John were taken to heaven and saw many things and John described souls under the altar who were talking and singing.  The Lord has a real physical body and dead people are said to be "at home with the Lord", who is in heaven, according to the Bible.

Acts 3:21 - Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

The previous edition of the NIV says "He must remain in heaven until . . . "

The Greek word means "to retain, contain".  This verse states clearly that Jesus stays in heaven until the Trib is over, when He will return to earth to reign as King.

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

In this sense we are abroad from the Lord when we are at home in our body.

It means we are on earth and not in heaven.  

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

The saints who are unclothed from their body in Paradise under the earth are in this sense more with the Lord.

That doesn't make sense.

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

The deceased saints are awaiting resurrection while in Paradise.

Rev 19 reveals otherwise.  

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

But they are comfortable even as Samuel said he was at rest in Sheol in 1 Sam. 28:15.

And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up? 

Yes, of course Sam was in Paradise.  That was OT times.  He is now "at home with the Lord" since Jesus took all the saved from Paradise up with Him to heaven.  There are no verses that support your SPECK-ulation.

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

And Lazarus is comfortable in Abraham's Bosom in which there is a gulf between himself and the suffering condemned. Abraham is with him too. And Abraham can speak across the unbridgable chasm to the condemns rich man. 

Both are in heaven with the Lord, awaiting His return to heaven and all of them following.

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<This couldn't any more clear about where the dead in Christ are right now.>>>

 You've just been shown an interpretation which I think is clearer based upon the Scriptures.

But I didn't need to interpret (or SPECK-ulate) on anything.  I provided straightforward plain language.

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<I'm curious about your answer to where some or all of the dead in Christ are, if not in heaven.  And please include Scripture that says what you say.>>>

They are in Paradise awaiting resurrection. There they are relatively speaking more with the Lord.  David said as a saint even if he should go to Sheol God would be there with His love and care.

  If I make my bed in Sheol, there You are.(Psalm 139:8b)

Written in OT times, so of course all saved people went to Sheol, in Paradise.  This doesn't support your SPECK-ulation.

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

To be fair, the same Psalm says that if he went to heaven God would be there. But he has not ascended to heaven. (Acts 2:34)   And he awaits the resurrection with all the other "sleeping" saints there.

I've provided straightforward verses in plain language.  Not SPECK-ulation.

[other one]

Hoooowweweeeeeee.   I see another locked thread just ahead.

When will you guys ever learn to talk about subjects and not each other.  That really isn't that difficult of a discussion technique to understand.   And people who just seem not go grasp it end up having to have all their posts approved by someone, which should not be necessary on a Christian web board.

[Alive]

21 minutes ago, other one said:

Hoooowweweeeeeee.   I see another locked thread just ahead.

When will you guys ever learn to talk about subjects and not each other.  That really isn't that difficult of a discussion technique to understand.   And people who just seem not go grasp it end up having to have all their posts approved by someone, which should not be necessary on a Christian web board.

A perfect example of the appropriateness of a public correction as an example for all readers and a lesson to those engaging in such. Thank you.

[Locust]

I don't like the word Raptured .ok it means to be taken up .yet the thought of everyone being taken up  does not fit . 

Matthew 5:5 

to possess the Earth means some one has to be here to possess it