Annihilationism

[Alive]

And again, the question.

 

[Luther]

7 hours ago, enoob57 said:

This is a direct denial of Jesus' account of Lazarus and the rich man... and we know
John 17:14 (KJV)

[14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

[15] I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

[16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

[17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

 

 

I'm sorry I don't understand the connection to John 17. 

You said: "This is a direct denial of Jesus' account of Lazarus and the rich man... and we know"

Luke 16:19-31 can be viewed several ways. If you seek the literal interpretation there are physical abnormalities that you have to explain for it to fit your narrative. Do you  believe these things are literally going on?

If it's understood as a " parable" ( an earthly story with a heavenly meaning), we could conclude, based on the context of the chapter, ".....that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God." (v. 15).  The rich man's glory was totally irrelevant or abominable in God's sight. The good things the rich man received in his life have no meaning once he perished. 

I noticed something interesting as well. Even though it's a parable, you can still see the reality of what becomes of the unsaved dead. In verse 22:

Luke 16:22

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Notice the emphasis given to the "soul" of Lazarus, not his body. His body was buried, of course, but nothing is said about it. Just the emphasis of ( his soul?) being carried away into Abraham's bosom  (obviously a picture of God's heaven).

Now look at the rich man. He was buried. That's it. No mention of being carried anywhere. His buried body ( along with his soul) is in" hell" ( v.23) or  grave, which is another name for " hell":

( Hell, Strong's #86 Transliteration: hadēs) Pronunciation: hah'-dace

Definition: From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen that is Hades or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave,  hell.

(Sidenote: Yes, I do believe that the unsaved soul is in a place of " silence" assuming " Hades" is that place, until the resurrection of " life" and  "damnation" in John 5:28-29). 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alive]

Consider…

“For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.”

(Ecclesiastes 9:5

[Luther]

6 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

It isn't the opposite.  Eternal life is an eternal existence.  Death is the experience of existence apart from God.

It doesn't say "eternal" death.  You have added that word to the verse.

First, lol, "an eternity" isn't "millions of years".  That's a good one.  The basic meaning of death is separation, and refers to the separation of soul from body, as James 2:26 says.  When a person dies, it is common to refer to the person as having "passed away" even though the body is still with us.  

The Bible describes the lake of fire as the "second death".  If you take words literally, what does that refer to?  Only one thing:  the resurrected but still mortal body DYING again when cast into the lake of fire.  So unbelievers will physically die two times.

That's only the physical part.  Rev 20:10 makes very clear that there will be an eternity of torment.  That means conscious experience for eternity.

We don't need theories.  We have the Bible and context is always key.  In the book of Revelation, John uses the words "for ever and ever" MOSTLY to describe God.  Do a word search on "for ever and ever" in Rev.  You'll see.  And you should know that God is absolutely eternal.  And there are no verses that show "for ever and ever" to be simply an exaggeration.

The fact that John included "day and night" right before "for ever and ever" gives the whole verse context for TIME.  We know that "day and night" refers to a 24 hour period, or 1 day.  So adding "for ever and ever" easily means a day never ending.  There can be no other obvious meaning.  The context from Revelation mostly describes eternal God.

The word "hell" refers to Hades, which is merely the holding tank for all unbelievers when they die.  Their soul remains in Hades until the Great White Throne judgment, and after being judged, every unbeliever will be cast into the LOF.

What is your version of Rev 20:14 - Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

What can die twice?

You said: "Death is the experience of existence apart from God."

Internet: death noun the action or fact of dying or being killed; the end of the life of a person or organism. 

Death is no longer having life. Forever. Eternally. 

......................................

You said: "The Bible describes the lake of fire as the "second death".  If you take words literally, what does that refer to"

I only take words literally when I cannot see the spiritual relevance ( at least at that time). 

Revelation 2:11

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years ( they shall reign with Him for ever in other words).

The phrase " first death" is not found in Scripture. But the " first resurrection" is. This is the resurrection of the dead in Christ, at the last day (John 6:40). We are blessed and holy to be part of this  "first" resurrection because the second death is the resurrection of the unsaved to eternal damnation ( which occurs on the last day as well). 

Everything happens at the last day:

John 5:28-29

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

[29]And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 12:48

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

John 11:24

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

At the last day of this world, Judgment day, Christ comes with "fervent heat"     ( 2 Peter 3) to cleanse this earth in preparation for a new one. The " lake of fire" is a metaphor for this event. Fire is symbolic for judgment, and in this case it also applies literally. 

The " second death" is the fiery destruction of this world when "death and hell" ( also known as the grave) will not longer be found. It's when Jesus Christ is revealed from heaven:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

[8]In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

[9]Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

[10]When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

" everlasting destruction" is very powerful. It means to be destroyed forever. Because when the new heavens and earth immediately follow the judgment of this earth ( Revelation 21),  "all things" will be made new ( v 5). 

Revelation 21:1,4

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

v.4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Mark 1:14-15

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

[15]And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Luke 21:31

So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

1 Corinthians 15:23-24

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

[24]Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

( Everything happens at the last day)

[FreeGrace]

50 minutes ago, Luther said:

You said: "Death is the experience of existence apart from God."

Internet: death noun the action or fact of dying or being killed; the end of the life of a person or organism.

This definition doesn't address the soul.  

50 minutes ago, Luther said:

 Death is no longer having life. Forever. Eternally.

True for the body only.  And the unbeliever's body will die TWICE.  So says the Bible.

50 minutes ago, Luther said:

You said: "The Bible describes the lake of fire as the "second death".  If you take words literally, what does that refer to"

I only take words literally when I cannot see the spiritual relevance ( at least at that time).

Good grief!  That's rather limiting.  It seems then that you try to spiritualize everything.  Is that right?  The problem with that is that anyone can say nearly anything when they spiritualize.  

The Bereans didn't do that with Paul's preaching.  They simply compared what he SAID with what Scripture SAID.

50 minutes ago, Luther said:

Revelation 2:11

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

This is a litotes, a literary technique: ironic understatement in which an affirmative is expressed by the negative of its contrary (e.g., you won't be sorry, meaning you'll be glad).  Since Jesus said plainly that those He gives eternal life shall never perish, that even includes those who fail to overcome.  

50 minutes ago, Luther said:

Revelation 20:6

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years ( they shall reign with Him for ever in other words).

The Bible teaches clearly that there will be only two resurrections, and everyone will be at one or the other, and they are 1,000 years apart.  Those who miss the first one will clearly be present for the second one, and then cast into the lake of fire.

50 minutes ago, Luther said:

Everything happens at the last day:

John 5:28-29

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

[29]And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

One must define which "last day".  There are several.

50 minutes ago, Luther said:

John 12:48

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

John 11:24

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

It is clear that the two resurrections are 1,000 years apart, so these verses refer to the last day of life on the present earth.  After all unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire, the present heavens and earth pass away and there will be a new heaven and earth.  This is the beginning of eternity.

However, there is the "last day" of natural life on earth, after which Jesus Christ returns to earth, resurrects all believers in immortal bodies, who will either reign with Him or serve Him in His kingdom on earth.  So believers will be in supernatural bodies, just like Jesus' resurrection body.  

50 minutes ago, Luther said:

At the last day of this world, Judgment day, Christ comes with "fervent heat"     ( 2 Peter 3) to cleanse this earth in preparation for a new one. The " lake of fire" is a metaphor for this event. Fire is symbolic for judgment, and in this case it also applies literally.

There are 2 judgment days.  One for believers, called the Judgment Seat of Christ or the Bema, and Great White Throne judgment for unbelievers.  And they are 1,000 years apart.  All believers will be resurrected just before the Bema and all unbelievers will be resurrected back into their mortal bodies just before the GWT.

50 minutes ago, Luther said:

 The " second death" is the fiery destruction of this world when "death and hell" ( also known as the grave) will not longer be found. 

The lake of fire is a real place, where the beast and false prophet will be cast into at the end of the Tribulation.  Then, at the end of the Millennial reign of Christ, Satan and all his fallen angel followers will be cast into the LOF to join the beast and false prophet.  And all of them will "be tormented day and night, for ever and ever".

The second death is when the still mortal resurrected body of unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire.  That body will literally die again.

50 minutes ago, Luther said:

It's when Jesus Christ is revealed from heaven:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

[8]In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

[9]Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

[10]When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

This describes the Second Advent of Christ.  It doesn't all happen at once.

50 minutes ago, Luther said:

" everlasting destruction" is very powerful. It means to be destroyed forever.

Contradiction of terms here.  Once completely destroyed, there's nothing left.  The Bible also speaks of "everlasting PUNISHMENT".

Matt 25:46 - And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

If there is nothing left, how can the "punishment" continue on forever?  It can't.

So Matt 25:46 proves that the LOF is eternal torment, just as Rev 20:10 says it is.

50 minutes ago, Luther said:

Because when the new heavens and earth immediately follow the judgment of this earth ( Revelation 21),  "all things" will be made new ( v 5). 

A new earth and heavens is the reference.  Not that there will be nothing left of unbelievers.  They will remain in the LOF forever, just as Matt 25:46 says.

50 minutes ago, Luther said:

Revelation 21:1,4

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

v.4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Nothing here to support your claim.

50 minutes ago, Luther said:

Mark 1:14-15

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

[15]And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

The point?

50 minutes ago, Luther said:

Luke 21:31

So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

The point?

50 minutes ago, Luther said:

1 Corinthians 15:23-24

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

[24]Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

v.23 states plainly when the first resurrrection will be:  at His coming.

v.24 doesn't say "the end" comes next.  The key is "when He shall habve delivered up the kingdom to God the father, when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power".

iow, at the end of the Millennial kingdom.

50 minutes ago, Luther said:

( Everything happens at the last day)

Again, more than 1 "last day".  

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 

True for the body only.  And the unbeliever's body will die TWICE.  So says the Bible.

>>>>>> @FreeGrace said:  And the unbeliever's body will die TWICE.  So says the Bible.<<<<<........Can you provide scripture for study where the Bible says that the unbeliever's body will die TWICE? 

 

Edited January 12 by Your closest friendnt

[FreeGrace]

53 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

>>>>>> @FreeGrace said:  And the unbeliever's body will die TWICE.  So says the Bible.<<<<<........Can you provide scripture for study where the Bible says that the unbeliever's body will die TWICE? 

Heb :27 says, "Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,".  So everyone will die.

Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15 all say there is a resurrection for the saved and a resurrection for the unsaved.  1 Cor 15:23 says the resurrection for the saved will be "when He comes", which is the Second Advent, which ends the Tribulation.  Rev 20:4-6.

Since the Bible says there will be a resurrection for the unsaved, what other kind of body will they be raised in, other than their own??  Why would the Bible need to say what is quite obvious.  They sure won't receive a glorified immortal body, like the saved will because the Bible doesn't say they will, and why would God give those who will be condemned for never having believed a body that won't die?  Makes no sense.

Rev 20:4-6 also notes the resurrection at the Second Advent is the FIRST resurrection, proving there will be another one.  Which will be 1,000 years AFTER the FIRST one.

So what ELSE is there that will die a SECOND TIME but the resurrected mortal body of the unsaved?  

The FACT that the lake of fire is also called the second death is the proof.

What do you think will die AGAIN regarding unbelievers?

 

[Your closest friendnt]

@FreeGrace 

I am still waiting. Where is the scripture from the Bible that according to you it says: And the unbeliever's body will die TWICE.  So says the Bible. 

Please post the scripture to have a study. A study from the same author. Or the same book. The Berrian way this time. 

Because this statement is not in the Bible. Or there are not factual statements in the Bible to support the following . @Free grace said And the unbeliever's body will die TWICE.  So says the Bible.

Edited January 13 by Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

8 hours ago, Alive said:

Consider…

“For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.”

(Ecclesiastes 9:5

I am wondering if you could say that to Daniel. 

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

@FreeGrace 

I am still waiting. Where is the scripture from the Bible that according to you it says: And the unbeliever's body will die TWICE.  So says the Bible. 

I explained it clearly and thoroughly in my last post to you.  I proved from the Bible that unbelievers will be resurrected after the millennial reign of Christ.  Rev 20:4-6.  They are the implied SECOND resurrection.  Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15 all plainly say that the saved and the unsaved will be resurrected.

So, the only issue left is what kind of body will the unsaved be resurrected in?  Well, we already have examples in the Bible.  There are 2 accounts from the OT where dead bodies came back to life, and numerous accounts in the gospels of people coming back from death.  So, what is holding you back from the obvious FACT that all unbelievers will be resurrected back into their mortal bodies. 

So, when cast into the LOF, what do you think will die again?  Obviously, the body.

10 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Please post the scripture to have a study. A study from the same author. Or the same book. The Berrian way this time.

I did it in my last post and also in this post.  You have all the info you need to understand.

10 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

 Because this statement is not in the Bible.

This is an erroneous statement.  Kinda like demanding your own favorite words to prove something.  Well, the Trinity is TRUE but the word doesn't occur in the Bible.  That does not make the concept untrue.

No one has a right to demand specific wording.  You have the FACTS.  So you don't need a cleanly worded statement that satisfies your specificities.  

When a mortal body is cast into the LOF, it will die.  And since all unbelievers will have died by the end of the Millennium, it will DIE AGAIN when cast into the LOF.

10 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Or there are not factual statements in the Bible to support the following . @Free grace said And the unbeliever's body will die TWICE.  So says the Bible.

OK, So clearly indicates the Bible.  Sheeeeeeeeeeesh.