Annihilationism

[Your closest friendnt]

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I explained it clearly and thoroughly in my last post to you.  I proved from the Bible that unbelievers will be resurrected after the millennial reign of Christ.  Rev 20:4-6.  They are the implied SECOND resurrection.  Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15 all plainly say that the saved and the unsaved will be resurrected.

So, the only issue left is what kind of body will the unsaved be resurrected in?  Well, we already have examples in the Bible.  There are 2 accounts from the OT where dead bodies came back to life, and numerous accounts in the gospels of people coming back from death.  So, what is holding you back from the obvious FACT that all unbelievers will be resurrected back into their mortal bodies. 

So, when cast into the LOF, what do you think will die again?  Obviously, the body.

You did not post the context of the verses you put forwards for study. And why it is important to post the scripture? Because there are many different versions and there not all the same. We need to study the Berean way. And that includes to verify the translation with the original. Just in case. 

17 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Heb :27 says, "Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,".  So everyone will die.

 Hebrews 9:27 is not supporting your claims but rather it contradicts your claims as it speaks about a judgment after man is separated from his body at the death of his body. This Judgment is waiting to happen after everyone dies. They are not in their bodies for this judgment. It is a judgment for everyone without their bodies. Waiting to take place after they are seperated from their dead bodies. Does it says something else? Is there anything else in the contextual facts? 

Edited January 13 by Your closest friendnt

[FreeGrace]

50 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

You did not post the context of the verses you put forwards for study.

Are you just trying to be difficult??  "the context"??  Your question was about where the Bible says unbelievers will die twice, and I proved that from various Scriptures.

50 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

And why it is important to post the scripture? Because there are many different versions and there not all the same.

I gave you the specific verses that together prove that unbelievers will die twice physically.

50 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

We need to study the Berean way. And that includes to verify the translation with the original. Just in case.

And that is exactly what I always do.  

50 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Hebrews 9:27 is not supporting your claims but rather it contradicts your claims as it speaks about a judgment after man is separated from his body at the death of his body.

Please read it again.  The statement applies to everyone.  Everyone will die once.  Got it?  But since unbelievers will be resurrected to appear before the GWT, their still mortal body will die AGAIN when they are cast into the LOF.  

50 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

This Judgment is waiting to happen after everyone dies.

That is incorrect.  There are 2 judgments.  Believers are judged at the Bema, per 2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.  Unbelievers will be judged at the GWT judgment, per Rev 20:11-15.

50 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

They are not in their bodies for this judgment.

You are the non-Berean here.  What verse teaches this?  Of course everyone will be a body when judged.  Where do you get your claims from?

50 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

'It is a judgment for everyone without their bodies.

I don't believe what the Bible doesn't teach.

50 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Waiting to take place after they are seperated from their dead bodies. Does it says something else? Is there anything else in the contextual facts? 

I've already given you everything you need to understand the issue.

[Your closest friendnt]

7 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Are you just trying to be difficult??  "the context"??  Your question was about where the Bible says unbelievers will die twice, and I proved that from various Scriptures.

I gave you the specific verses that together prove that unbelievers will die twice physically.

No you did not do that because there are not any.  What you think yes, the way you are trying to explain it yes and in your explanation only. But not in scripture. 

7 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 

Please read it again.  The statement applies to everyone.  Everyone will die once.  Got it?  

 

7 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

But since unbelievers will be resurrected to appear before the GWT, their still mortal body will die AGAIN when they are cast into the LOF.  

The text make you wrong, verse 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. 

7 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

That is incorrect.  There are 2 judgments.

The Judgment of those who had died and the Judgement of those who live and die after the Cross. 

7 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 Believers are judged at the Bema, per 2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

 Unbelievers will be judged at the GWT judgment, per Rev 20:11-15.

Not according to Revelation 20:15, 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. 

7 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 Of course everyone will be a body when judged

In their soulist form yes, indeed. 

No one appear before the Heavenly Throne in their earthly body. The dead appears before the Judgement sit of Christ and the dead means without their  bodies. 

Revelation 20:11-15 NIV

The Judgment of the Dead

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 

12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne,

and books were opened. 

Another book was opened, which is the book of life. 

The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them,

and each person was judged according to what they had done.

15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. 

Among all those dead people were some whose name was written in the book of Life. 

No where in the Hebrew text 9:27 and the Revelation text 20:11-15 the word resurrected appears, and neither the words Millennium neither the words mortal bodies or bodies at all. 

In Revelation 20:12 Another book was opened, which is the book of life.

And in verse 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. 

Those whose name was not found in the book of life were thrown in the LOF not all. This is what Peter said that some of the dead believed in Jesus Christ as they heard him speaking to them.  Jesus said just before he dies "the time has come that the dead will hear my voice and those who hear they will come to Life.

You should consider that not all the dead in Revelation 20 were thrown in the LoF because only those whose names was not written in the book of life.  

This is what.the scripture comunicates. 

Edited January 14 by Your closest friendnt

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 1/2/2025 at 3:44 PM, GodIsLife said:

By eternal annihilation I mean that the devil, demons and godless people will cease to exist when they are thrown into the lake of fire. It's like throwing a piece of paper into the fire. It is consumed by the fire and is no longer there.

 

I believe it is annihilation, the fire is some special fire that can destroy
consciousness, but it will take time, a different time for each soul thrown in.

And there are those who will resist and struggle against the annihilation,
forever, and as such be tormented forever.

 

 

What if that piece of paper has consciousness? And has read the Bible and knows the ultimate end it has because it is evil? What can it do? Does it have real free will?

If it does have real free will, a real ability to choose,
would it not aim to try to survive in the ending fire?

I think the devil aims to survive in the lake of fire.

As such it is written:
"and the devil that deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire...
and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
Revelation 20:10

"Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?
Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?"
Isaiah 33:14

 

And what really is the lake of fire? And where is it?
I think it is as follows:

Rev 11:5 is literal, a fire goes out of their mouth.
They begin the kindling of the lake.
These guys will be like superman flying around and such
as will the beast and false prophet.
[ The world is already conditioned for such literal things to happen,
it is by deceptive design. ]
The beast and false prophet kill them.
So it is fitting that the beast and false prophet
are ultimately thrown into a lake initially kindled by the two olive trees.

Second, Christ returns and kindles more of the lake,
with literal fire from His mouth: Revelation 19:20-21.
As a result there is then a literal lake of fire
around Jerusalem.

Third, The Father sends a final fire down
that destroys the sky, the sea and the land
Revelation 20:9, 2 Peter 3:8-12

The result is the lake of fire; this current world
set on divine fire, turned into lava.

I think the enemy plans to try to survive it,
and there are also evil men that have the same plans.

Through all manner of technology and effort
they even now are making things to try to have them
be able to survive the coming destruction.
I believe what the anti-Christ will present to the world
is an intimate part of that effort to survive in the resulting lake
of fire that this place becomes.

For those reasons, them being in the lake for some time
is warranted.

Also there are people who enjoy tormenting people,
people who have chosen rebellion and rascalism.
Such people deserve torment,
equal to the torment they have dished out.

This place, the sky, sea and land becomes all lava and fire.
Everything would sink down into the lava. Everyone in it eventually
just going down forever, down in lava, surrounded by lava,
divine pure sulfur based lava.

The city of heaven comes down as the sky melts and burns, [Revelation 20:9, 21:1-2] with streets of transparent gold, as such the lake will be in the presence of the lamb, saints, and of the holy angels, for some time as the city comes down.

 

 

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

  FreeGrace said:

Are you just trying to be difficult??  "the context"??  Your question was about where the Bible says unbelievers will die twice, and I proved that from various Scriptures.

I gave you the specific verses that together prove that unbelievers will die twice physically.

No you did not do that because there are not any.

Your denial does not refute the verses I gave, which prove that all unbelievers will die twice.  

13 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

  What you think yes, the way you are trying to explain it yes and in your explanation only. But not in scripture.

The verses speak for themselves.  I only point them out.  Your argument is with them, not me.  I understand plainly worded verses.  And they affirm what I believe.

13 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

The text make you wrong, verse 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

So, how does v.15 "make me wrong"?  Please explain yourself.  Your claim is not proved by simply citing or quoting a verse.  The verse is clear.  All unbelievers will be cast into the LOF.  That doesn't refute anything I've said.  And you haven't provided any clear explanation of why it would.

13 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

The Judgment of those who had died and the Judgement of those who live and die after the Cross.

Please re-phrase this statement.  It does not make sense.

13 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Not according to Revelation 20:15, 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. 

In their soulist form yes, indeed.

Oh, so you're going to ADD to Scripture, huh.  Well, that isn't kosher.  The Bible tells us that there will be a resurrection of the unsaved.  Why would there be, if not to appear before the GWT.  Do you have any ideas?

13 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

No one appear before the Heavenly Throne in their earthly body.

This is just an opinion.  Prove it from the Bible.

13 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

The dead appears before the Judgement sit of Christ and the dead means without their  bodies.

Another opinion.  I give Scripture that plainly says what I believe.  Which is why I believe what I believe.  

13 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Revelation 20:11-15 NIV

The Judgment of the Dead

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 

12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne,

and books were opened. 

Another book was opened, which is the book of life. 

The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them,

and each person was judged according to what they had done.

Since this time period is AFTER the Millennial Reign of Christ, it should be obvious that all the saved have already been evaluated at the Bema (2 Cor 5:10), which occurs at the Second Advent.  That means during the Millennial Reign, all believers will be in their glorified immortal bodies, and ABLE to serve Him appropriately.  No unbeliever will have any power over them.  Obviously.

13 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. 

Among all those dead people were some whose name was written in the book of Life.

This is a presumption without any biblical support.  No believer will be judged twice.  All believers will be judged at the Bema at the Second Advent.  

13 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

 No where in the Hebrew text 9:27 and the Revelation text 20:11-15 the word resurrected appears, and neither the words Millennium neither the words mortal bodies or bodies at all.

So what?  Demanding specific words is just like arguing against the Trinity, since that word doesn't occur anywhere in the Bible.  

13 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

In Revelation 20:12 Another book was opened, which is the book of life.

And in verse 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

The point is clear.  All the unbelievers will be judged based on their works, from the "books" plural.  The mention of the "book of life" is there to show that their names weren't in that book.  Which is why they are cast into the LOF.

What doe you think being judged by the "bookS" results in?  iow, what's the point?

13 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

 Those whose name was not found in the book of life were thrown in the LOF not all.

Why did you add "not all" at the end of your sentence?  It makes the whole sentence unclear.  Please re-phrase for clarity.

I can't respond when sentences are confusing, or unclear.

13 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

This is what Peter said that some of the dead believed in Jesus Christ as they heard him speaking to them.

What are you talking about here?  Could you at least cite verses that you are referring to?  And how can physically dead hear anything.  Their bodies don't hear, don't move, don't do anything.  

13 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

  Jesus said just before he dies "the time has come that the dead will hear my voice and those who hear they will come to Life.

He was referring to the time WHEN physically dead people will be resurrected.  But don't believe the error that both the saved and unsaved will be resurrected at the same time.

13 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

You should consider that not all the dead in Revelation 20 were thrown in the LoF because only those whose names was not written in the book of life.

What you haven't considered is that the resurrection of ALL the saved is shown CLEARLY in 1 Cor 15:23.  All believers (those who belong to Him) will be resurrected "when He comes", a direct reference to the Second Advent.  This verse alone REFUTES the notion that believers will be at the GWT judgment.  Not gonna happen.

13 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

  This is what.the scripture comunicates. 

What I've said is what the Scripture says.  Your opinions don't line up with what the Bible says.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

GodIsLife said:

By eternal annihilation I mean that the devil, demons and godless people will cease to exist when they are thrown into the lake of fire. It's like throwing a piece of paper into the fire. It is consumed by the fire and is no longer there.

I believe it is annihilation, the fire is some special fire that can destroy
consciousness, but it will take time, a different time for each soul thrown in.

You guys seem to not realize that if someone ceases to exist, then all "punishment" will cease to exist as well, because punishment requires consciousness, with which to experience the punishment.

If a person dies physically, all the physical spanking that can be applied has NO EFFECT on the body.

Yet, Matt 25:46 speaks of ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, a related word with "condemnation".  So conscious awareness is REQUIRED by definition.

iow, you can't punish someone who isn't there.  That is uneniable.

And, atheists have a very similar view.  They think they will cease to exist.  That means there is no consequence for anything they have done. The Bible never teaches that. 

1 hour ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

And there are those who will resist and struggle against the annihilation,
forever, and as such be tormented forever.

This sounds as though some will 'overpower' God and stay conscious.  Why would anyone choose to be consciously tormented forever if they would be annihilated and then there would be nothing?

Have you actually thought through your views?  They don't make sense.

If you were captured and told you could choose a quick death or be tortured for months, what would you choose, actually?  This isn't difficult.

[LuftWaffle]

16 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

You guys seem to not realize that if someone ceases to exist, then all "punishment" will cease to exist as well, because punishment requires consciousness, with which to experience the punishment.

If a person dies physically, all the physical spanking that can be applied has NO EFFECT on the body.

Yet, Matt 25:46 speaks of ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, a related word with "condemnation".  So conscious awareness is REQUIRED by definition.

iow, you can't punish someone who isn't there.  That is uneniable.

And, atheists have a very similar view.  They think they will cease to exist.  That means there is no consequence for anything they have done. The Bible never teaches that. 

This sounds as though some will 'overpower' God and stay conscious.  Why would anyone choose to be consciously tormented forever if they would be annihilated and then there would be nothing?

Have you actually thought through your views?  They don't make sense.

If you were captured and told you could choose a quick death or be tortured for months, what would you choose, actually?  This isn't difficult.

The idea that all punishment must be corporal punishment, because unless its 'felt' it's not a punishment, is strange. Capital punishment has been seen as a harsh form of punishment throughout history. Human beings fear death and dread it. Depriving sinners of the eternal life that Christ offers is a great loss indeed.

Since you're trying to tie the belief to atheism I'll do the same. Pro-choice people believe that killing unborn children is fine because depriving them of life before they can 'experience' anything or feel anything is okay. As Christians we believe life has intrinsic value. Are you pro-life? If so, does life have value?

So isn't your view perhaps informed by hedonism, where it's all about how things feel, instead of valuing eternal life with Christ?

Matthew 25:46 juxtaposes eternal punishment with eternal life:
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”"

What your view teaches is that both the saved and the unsaved life forever, it's just the location that differs. So your view is at odds with this verse. You believe that the unsaved with be alive, conscious and aware forever right?

Annihilationism on the other hand is perfectly consistent with a literal reading of Matthew 25:46 in that the unsaved with be killed in the second death and they will  remain dead forever as an eternal punishment. The first death was temporary followed by the resurrection and judgement, and the second death is eternal. 

You need to treat eternal life as not literally living forever, but as a symbolic phrase meaning something like "living forever in heaven" as opposed to "living forever in hell" but the verse you're quoting doesn't say that.

"If you were captured and told you could choose a quick death or be tortured for months, what would you choose, actually? "
We don't base doctrine on what sinners would least prefer, we base it on what the Bible teaches, not so?
What if some modern heretic invented a new doctrine which claims that the unsaved will not only be burned forever, but have to listen to Katy Perry and Chér's songs while they're burning forever? Surely this would be slightly less preferable than merely burning forever, so then that must be true, since your theology is based on whatever is least preferable, right?

Edited January 15 by LuftWaffle

[LuftWaffle]

55 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

@LuftWaffle 

I am at a loss. 

If you can present your views in this matter will be easier to understand and please without the comments to the other poster. 

Could you perhaps clarify what you're asking me to do here?

My view, simply put, is that the fate of the unsaved is that they will be  completed killed/slain/destroyed by God and remain dead forever as opposed to living forever in torment.

I believe the case for this in scripture is far stronger than the traditionalist view of eternal conscious torment.

I have laid out this case here: 

In terms of quoting the other poster, I did that because my response was directed at him/her.

[LuftWaffle]

10 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Greetings to you. 

Definitely I cannot asked Shiloh anything. 

The link I sent you was a formal debate between myself and Shiloh. While you cannot ask Shiloh anything, I presume you can read my opening statement in that debate about the topic?
I assumed you were interested in what I believed, so I offered the link, that's all.
 

Quote

About your statement in your quoted post above in bold and remain dead forever is this an agreed statement of fact among other Annihilationisms

Annihilationism is also referred to as Conditional Immortality, because we believe that immortality is a gift given only to the saved. As such the unsaved will not have immortality but will be cut off from Christ who sustains and gives life. Ergo they will die, and since this punishment is permanent, their death will be permanent.
I believe this comports with what most Annihilationists believe, though I certainly cannot speak for all of them.

Do you believe that unsaved are immortal?

[LuftWaffle]

On 1/7/2025 at 11:24 PM, WilliamL said:

When a piece of paper is burned up, it does not still exist, as you said. But souls are not inanimate objects that can be destroyed. So they will keep on burning...

You say souls cannot be destroyed, but the Bible teaches the exact opposite.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.